145 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

For me the Hoosier issue on some tracks the delta time between a sticker tire and a 2-3 HC tire. In some cases it is around 1 second. Never had that delta when running RA-1's

[Mark McCallister]

What I didn't understand was the complaints about managing RA-1s.  You can't run a new motor without breaking it in.  You can't go out and race on unbedded pads.  You can't have the same chassis setup for every track.  With all the prep time and money being spent, I didn't understand the complaints about "managing" the RA-1, which wasn't very hard to do.  I think that's why I always thought the people against RA-1s were just shills, or that weird brand of "patriot" that only thought Made In The USA mattered when it came to what race tires he put on his Korean/British wheels to put on his Japanese car with his Chinese impact gun?

 

They seemed very easy for a mid-pack driver to manage anyway.  I think everybody just wanted to save the $60 per set shaving cost.  It wasn't the shaving that bothered people about the RA-1, they just wanted to save the $60.  The survey that was sent out to everyone was nice, but it failed to differentiate between whether shaving was hated or the $60 cost of shaving was hated.  The unshaved RA-1 price was great, and the hc life was more than acceptable to me.

[JRHille]

I agree completely with Mark's comments on the RA1 and I have to say its very similar to how the RR behaves for us in the GreatLakes.

I understand we don't have the talent pool that the SCCA has so our analysis of the tire might not be what national front runners experience. We haven't had anyone inflating the competition and trying new and possibly more expensive things.

Out of gingerman, grattan, Putnam, mid Ohio, and autobahn, only gingerman and Putnam showed a significant gain running sticker RRs. I have no experience running RRs in different regions other than miller, which also seemed to like old used up "junk". I personally didn't improve times by running shaved tires there, but anyone who did please speak up.

It works out really well for us with our season schedule. Putnam and gingerman like stickers, so we run a set for each weekend on qualifying then race on scrubs. Meanwhile, these tires are getting ready for tracks like autobahn mid Ohio and grattan. Never a good reason to get rid of a tire with tracks liking tires from a broad range of the life span.

Thinking about running a lot more SCCA but the tire budget has us nervous. It obviously won't be the" buy 3 sets at the beginning of the year and none until nationals (and be competitive)" system we became used to

[Jim Drago]

For me the Hoosier issue on some tracks the delta time between a sticker tire and a 2-3 HC tire. In some cases it is around 1 second. Never had that delta when running RA-1's

I have never seen close to this delta from stickers to 2-3 cycle tires? What tracks are you referring to?

[James York]

Thinking about running a lot more SCCA but the tire budget has us nervous. It obviously won't be the" buy 3 sets at the beginning of the year and none until nationals (and be competitive)" system we became used to

No it won't.  If you are at a big boy race with the SM guns, you need to have a sticker set for EACH qualifying session or else you have already handicapped yourself.  Different folks seem to get different "usable" HCs, but I don't think anyone will argue, that on the SM6, using a sticker (or gently scrubbed) set in qualifying maximizes one's performance window.

[JRHille]

No it won't.  If you are at a big boy race with the SM guns, you need to have a sticker set for EACH qualifying session or else you have already handicapped yourself.  Different folks seem to get different "usable" HCs, but I don't think anyone will argue, that on the SM6, using a sticker (or gently scrubbed) set in qualifying maximizes one's performance window.

 

Exactly, I'm saying this wasn't the way it was in my NASA region running RR's.  Not sure if its the level of competition (highly possible), but from what I have experienced the RR provides way more competitive heat cycles, and it will be nice if the SM7 acts more like that.  Just a rant on how well the RR has worked for us and the HUGE difference between tire budget between the two groups.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I have never seen close to this delta from stickers to 2-3 cycle tires? What tracks are you referring to?

 

Not sure wat Danny knows,but I would have to say after going to both Gingerman, and Gateway, both of those tracks are very close to a 1 second difference at least for me. Gateway In qualifying race with you and I on 5 cyclke tires as I remember yo were faster then me byabout .050, with me on 4 cycle tires in last race you on stickers, there was no comparison between our times you were faster by 1.4 secnds.  

[Kevin B]

thanks Jim. I thought SMAC would have had some say, but thanks for setting me straight. Now I understand that l need to contact my regional director. I am guessing in things like this, for any changes to happen, there has to be a groundswell of support before changes are considered.

 

That being said. I am fearful of pushing for any alternate tire that I have no experience with. I love the SM6 as a tire, but hate what it costs to compete up front with it. I do NOT want to go back to shaved tires. So until I have sufficient time on several sets of RR's running against several others on RR's, my guess is that I will NOT be writing any letters, just in case I call for a tire that has another set of issues that I have no idea about. 

 

In the meantime can we get more people who have raced RR's or other tires to document their experiences. Thanks

Danny,

I've run the RRs for about a year now, in both NASA SM and SCCA ITA on my 1.6 and on the 1.8 ITA car we took to the 13-hour this year.  I'll share the following data with the caveat that I'm still a noob so please take my experience for what it's worth...

 

Roughly a year ago, we ran a single set of sticker RR's on my brother's 1.6 SSM in the 13-hour up to the 10+ hour mark when the diff failed.  They held up well.  I started the race and had the last full stint before the car retired and the pace and feel remained consistent.  They used them successfully as practice tires during their next Rd Atlanta weekend.

 

In January, I went to OPM's test day at Roebling in my Regional-prepped 1.6 and used a set of new RRs for the weekend.  Fowler jumped in the car late afternoon Saturday (~4 cycle) for a few laps, turned a 23.5 and claimed that he really liked the feel of the tires.  I think every other car he drove that weekend was on SM6s.

 

At CMP in March, I ran RRs and clipped my previous best by about 0.5 sec (set the year before during first ever time there on SM6).  That has more to do with familiarity than anything else but I believe, on the 1.6 at least, that there's a little too much grip offered by the SM6.

 

Lastly, at this year's 13-hour, we ran a 1.8 ITA, started on sticker RRs and the set went 12 hours.  We replaced the left front at the 12 hour mark because it was starting to show cord.  Lap times stayed within 1-1.5 seconds throughout the race.  It felt very predictable up to the limit.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-Kevin Bailey 

[Danica Davison]

Now I understand that l need to contact my regional director. I am guessing in things like this, for any changes to happen, there has to be a groundswell of support before changes are considered.

 

Danny,

Robin Langlotz, our Director in the SE, will be at the turkey trot (#9 ITA Integra). I'm not sure if you have met him, but, he is a good family friend of mine, and now after my first year in SM, he has been more involved in Spec Miata and is putting a lot of effort into hearing what SM drivers have to say to help us achieve our goals as a class. I am sure he will want to hear your thoughts, as well as expressing some of his own. 

[RussMcB]

 

Lastly, at this year's 13-hour, we ran a 1.8 ITA, started on sticker RRs and the set went 12 hours. 

Big deal.  One heat cycle.  :-).

 

JK.

[Chad Martin]

I agree completely with Mark's comments on the RA1 and I have to say its very similar to how the RR behaves for us in the GreatLakes.

I understand we don't have the talent pool that the SCCA has so our analysis of the tire might not be what national front runners experience. We haven't had anyone inflating the competition and trying new and possibly more expensive things.

Out of gingerman, grattan, Putnam, mid Ohio, and autobahn, only gingerman and Putnam showed a significant gain running sticker RRs. I have no experience running RRs in different regions other than miller, which also seemed to like old used up "junk". I personally didn't improve times by running shaved tires there, but anyone who did please speak up.

It works out really well for us with our season schedule. Putnam and gingerman like stickers, so we run a set for each weekend on qualifying then race on scrubs. Meanwhile, these tires are getting ready for tracks like autobahn mid Ohio and grattan. Never a good reason to get rid of a tire with tracks liking tires from a broad range of the life span.

Thinking about running a lot more SCCA but the tire budget has us nervous. It obviously won't be the" buy 3 sets at the beginning of the year and none until nationals (and be competitive)" system we became used to

 

Exactly what I saw throughout the year for the RRs in mid-west and a central event tracks Ben Anderson ran when i was crewing for him.  It depended on the track as to when they were fastest. The RRs were very consistent throughout their life.  Seemed to get faster with every lap at autobahn up until they corded.  Same at MAM.   Really good, economical tire to run on.

[Protech Racing]

 Little tiny dog in the hunt; I have 5 race cars, 3 that I rent.

  I rent one SM , mostly @ Sebring. The Hoosier tire use is 6- 8 tires per weekend @ Sebring and about the same @ PBIR.

  My rental price used to include the tires.  Now it is plus tires.   So the tire bill for this weekend is 1500$ for 6 sessions, +-. 

The total race cost will be about 4000$., for 2-3 hrs on track. crazy. IMHO

 (There is a reason thata lot of old SMs went Crap can racing, IMHo, 4000$ gets the entire weekend done )

 

 The front pack of 6 cars are spending 2xor 3x  what we used to spend on Toyos.  

Hoosier does give very good trackside service.  very important!  But 50 cars spending 1200 per are pretty big #s.

 

 We also run a many races/ttrack days, on 180TW tires. Great fun and 12hrs or more easy(rotated), floggin.  Sure the car is 3-4 sec slower.

 The BFG Rivals,  KUmho XS, Dunlop Stars  and more , all good . Cheap  . They start out pretty" fast" slow down a tiny touch, and get  very slightly faster again as they get lighter.  I doubt the total time spread is over 1sec @ 2:50

 

 Look at the Solo stuff with the Roadtire classes.  Big gains.

  I know , SM has plenty of cars..

[DrDomm]

I'm gonna throw this out there, and hope it doesn't "bother" anyone.  Considering we have a "spec" tire, should Hoosier be giving away free tires to anyone?  Does that help control costs for those trying to keep up?

 

I know you can't prohibit anyone from buying new tires, but maybe it would help if everyone had to buy their tires.

 

Stopping tire contingencies won't cure the tire expense problem, but it might help a little.

[Johnny D]

Looks like NASA's putting all their Spec Tire Classes (Eggs) in one basket.

J~

 

http://www.nasaprora...lowance-fo.html

[Bench Racer]

I'm gonna throw this out there, and hope it doesn't "bother" anyone.  Considering we have a "spec" tire, should Hoosier be giving away free tires to anyone?  Does that help control costs for those trying to keep up?

 

I know you can't prohibit anyone from buying new tires, but maybe it would help if everyone had to buy their tires.

 

Stopping tire contingencies won't cure the tire expense problem, but it might help a little.

Said with all due respect, within the SCCA. No matter how they get the free tires, the pointy end folks get free tires. It's been the tire manufactures practice for years. Maybe giving to the top end finish order spreads the wealth a bit more.

[FTodaro]

Looks like NASA's putting all their Spec Tire Classes (Eggs) in one basket.

J~

 

http://www.nasaprora...lowance-fo.html

Two things stand out in my mind about this announcement. NASA and Toyo have a partnership they put there heads together to develop a tire. I do not see NASA doing away with TOYO any time soon. So if the SM class is ever going to get back to the same tire, it looks Like SCCA would have to switch to the Toyo.

 

Since SCCA does not have the same level of partnership that NASA does and likely never will because NASA may be protective of that partnership, We may never be on the same tire. 

 

No easy answer on the tire issue. Clearly Hoosier supports the tire better at the track, If the new SM7 turns out to be more durable we may solve a lot of problems, but as far as the front runners buying a new set of tires for every qualifying session, Sadly, i think the Genie is out of the bottle. If those drivers feel they get any advantage out of stickers you can bet they will sticker up.

[Johnny D]

 

Since SCCA does not have the same level of partnership that NASA does and likely never will because NASA may be protective of that partnership, We may never be on the same tire. 

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RKMNPQ35OUc

J~

[Glenn Davis]

Money talks.  The top SCCA racers are willing to spend it, and the mid-packers accept their lot in life.  This doesn't violate the basic paradigm of money+talent = speed.

 

I don't believe NASA made the decision with any other righteous purpose in mind, whether it favors SM competition or not.

 

As a person building a new SM that has raced both sanctions for convenience, it may make me go one way or another.

[LarryKing]

I hate that forking genie!

[Keith Andrews]

Looks like NASA's putting all their Spec Tire Classes (Eggs) in one basket.

J~

 

http://www.nasaprora...lowance-fo.html

 

That's a lot of people that used to buy Hoosiers that can't anymore.  Maybe any further suggestions for an improved SM tire will get a more serious listen from Hoosier.  Wishful thinking.