856 replies to this topic

[Sydwayzracer]

http://youtu.be/U6Q0vJcbb4Y

Something to chew on.

[Steve Scheifler]

Steve, if it doesn't make any "real" difference why would anyone risk it for the race where you know you're going to get torn down?

Can't wait for the ARRC. I know my head is legal.

Muda, we will have to wait for that explanation but I can relate to a couple things in the past.

the closest to this is that after shaving a head, any responsible engine guy would at least radius the exposed edges inside the combustion chamber to prevent hotspots that might promote preignition. To me that is SOP as part of the process but could fail strict interpretation of the rules. Preignition or other "safe" rationale are not an issue here, but perhaps "part of the allowed mod" could be argued?

But the short answer is the obvious one, even if it is only a "might help" and you think the rules can be argued to support it, do it. Keeping in mind of course that if building for someone else your argument should be pretty good. But isn't that EXACTLY what all you "pro" engine customers are paying for? How long have I been saying that there are VERY few legal ways to earn that money, and how many ways have I proved it?

[Kyle Freiheit]

The rules were pretty clear. Plunge cut and that's it. Blending the short side to the plunge cut by hand or with another tool is a no no. The fact that the people helping write the rules are also exploiting those rules is unfortunate. All of these little cheats started with a builder or 2 saying "I will just clean this up a bit and it should help, no one will know, its a common practice". Then a few other builders see this type of work getting through tech and all the sudden its the norm. We have had this happen so many times now, under(normal machining practices) guise that at some point you have to say when. When do we say when? 

[Juan Pineda]

Awesome race! Huge battles for P2-P4. Fast forward to 3:03 for the start.

 

http://www.speedcasttv.com/#/races/390

[Steve Scheifler]

And I didn't say there was no benefit, but you can't gain multiple HP, let alone enough to make such a conspicuous difference in upper gears. Anything that reduces restriction of the intake is worth doing if legal, even if it less than 1hp. And that can be the difference between finishing a draft-pass or not, but it won't let you motor by or break the draft. And let's not forget the restictor plates which dampen any intake flow gains you might craft.

[Steve Scheifler]

Kyle, I agree, pending the argument from those actually involved who have all the facts.

[Marc Cefalo]

If the unintended consequence of this turns out to be a sealed motor program, everyone is going to get in line for a new motor next year.

 

I have some bone stock heads for a 99 and 01 for sale, 5000.00 each.

 

 

 

using your figures Frank, Planet Miata has approx $620,000 worth of inventory...........

 

on a more serious note, some have said a very sad day for our class.  it stinks plain and simple.

 

we as a group must finally come to grips with the gradual rules/prep creep that has occurred, and define how to proceed.  i remember our first SM built back in 2002.  like others, i am amazed at how far we have gotten from the class philosophy.  

 

do we simply allow the rules to be changed for 2015 and make this an easy clean up for the future?

 

do we finally have guts as a group to truly race a spec class with sealed engines/ecu's, etc?

 

do we continue doing "business as usual" and roll the dice as to when the shit hits the fan again?

 

my recommendation is to have one sole engine "sealer"  you can get whomever to build your motors.  it still needs to perform within a set of parameters in a controlled environment by a third party (SCCA enterprises for example).

 

that way, racers can feel they are on a level playing field.

 

engine builders can still earn a living without worrying about not being the flavor of the year.

 

hell...we may even sing Kumbaya afterwards....lol  

[Kyle Freiheit]

Marc,

  I would love that... Not gonna happen. 

 

Kyle

[Bruce Wilson]

I would support it.  And yes, that is a big about-face for me.  All years with the same motor would also solve a LOT of issues!  Build them to 140hp

[Chris70]

Utopia.  Aka wishful thinking.

Ademir

S.A.C. racing

[Kyle Freiheit]

All years with the same motor would also solve a LOT of issues!  Build them to 140hp

 

Bruce 4 prez.

[mmcspecracer]

And I didn't say there was no benefit, but you can't gain multiple HP, let alone enough to make such a conspicuous difference in upper gears. Anything that reduces restriction of the intake is worth doing if legal, even if it less than 1hp. And that can be the difference between finishing a draft-pass or not, but it won't let you motor by or break the draft. And let's not forget the restictor plates which dampen any intake flow gains you might craft.

What if the protest was based upon the short radius and then they also found other things wrong as well? Couldnt a couple of illegal mods add up to 3 or 4 hp? If your an engine builder and you dont think tech is going to catch you because your engines have cleared tech at a bunch of national races and your competitors are doing the same thing, why would you stop at one illegal mod? Isnt it more likely that the engines have a bunch of mods to generate 3 or 4 additional hp? Im glad the SCCA bounced all these cars, but the reason this happened is because they have done such a poor job at the Nationals with tech. If there had been better tech at the national races and people had been DQd all along, you wouldnt have this embarrassing situation at the runoffs. Next year will be interesting.

[mmcspecracer]

I meant Majors, not Nationals.

[38bfast]

Marc I would love to see the class as a sealed motor program. But this freighter is very hard to turn at speed. We may have missed our opportunity to sail that course. I think we need to figure out a way to take on the rough seas that we are on and not sink the ship. Perfect Storm comes to mind but that did not end well for the crew on board.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Kuch, been longer than that. In 2006 Sunbelt had been using cams, illegal pistons, plugged oilers, suspect valve springs, and lots of valve-pocket cleanup for years already. In 2006 RE had been selling engines at least a couple years and by then was using cams, extra valve angles, low tension rings and coated pistons. And they weren't alone. When did the prior owner of this site start advertising Sunbelts? "Don't just win, dominate!".
Whatever you think, things are actually closer now than they were for years back then, and that's just engines!

I know it was longer then that,but you missed my point. It was a lot less money to throw a $500 to a $1,000 junkyard motor in and still be able to be at the front end of the field. I know some day I have to spend some money to get back to the front of the field or just start over with a new car. I just wish I didn't have to go to that limit. Don't get me wrong I can still finish in the top 5 with my car in a reg. race but not in a nat. Or a major. But I shouldn't expect to with the way my car is now. He'll I have a engine that I built and still have a open rear end in it. So I guess I will just sit back for awhile and see how this plays out before I do anything for next year.

Ps don't forget they used to stamp (make) there own cam gears that still looked factory !

[Steve Scheifler]

mmcspecracer, it would take a lot of little things in a restrictor plate car given how many from the past have already been adopted, but sure. Perhaps I should get one of today's best and go through it like I did in 2007(?). But I think there won't be much to find that isn't now known. And again, we have nothing to gain but confusion by overanalyse it without all the facts. As I recall, appeals are published in FasTrack, or is that not always true?

[Steve Scheifler]

Kuch, I didn't miss your point, I just question your conclusions. Engine disparity was much greater back then so either you weren't facing them or you were just a better driver and beat them anyway. I truly think a well prepped budget driver has a more level field today than it was 7-9 years ago, but a lot of talented drivers have joined since then. If that still isn't your point, it is mine.

[zoomzoom22]

Is there more to this story? There are posts being edited and JDaniels post is gone now as well.
So who was declared the winner etc.? I keep seeing the ninjas in and out listed at the bottom of this thread.

[mmcspecracer]

mmcspecracer, it would take a lot of little things in a restrictor plate car given how many from the past have already been adopted, but sure. Perhaps I should get one of today's best and go through it like I did in 2007(?). But I think there won't be much to find that isn't now known. And again, we have nothing to gain but confusion by overanalyse it without all the facts. As I recall, appeals are published in FasTrack, or is that not always true?

Dont know if the appeals from the runoffs are published or not because they are handled on an expedited basis. I raise all these points because i am a firm believer that people make the mods because they believe it gives them a material advantage and they dont think they will be caught. Id like to see much stricter tech at the majors and im willing to pay an extra fee for it. The top three at a majors race should have major league tech done to them. I dont know what the right balance is, but its definitely more then what they are doing now. People shouldnt have to put up 15k and go through what Schrader went through to get people to follow the rules - its the Clubs job to do that. Anyway, i have done a lot of posting today and i have Contributed my two cents. Going to go do some racing and watch how this all gets sorted out.

[Steve Scheifler]

Once upon a at time the class did pay extra for exactly that. Vocal people didn't think they got much for it. Not sure when that ended, but I do know many front runners complain about constant teardowns and what that does to their schedule getting away from the track and cost to reassemble. All good points, no easy answers.