856 replies to this topic

[mmcspecracer]

Danny, it's always a risk to post something on this site...especially for someone who isn't at the front of the grid, doesn't have the history in the sport as others, has never assembled an engine, and doesn't know everyone involved.
 
That said, I spent hours trying to understand what happened (with my limited mechanical understanding) and then posted what the situation looks like from a distance (to someone who just assumes the parts he buys are compliant).  I started my description of them by using the word "principled".  That was meant as a compliment, but you missed it.  Anyway, that is the sense I get about these guys (Will and Ken, specifically referenced here).
 
But instead of taking the high road, and calling or sending letters to engine builders/competitors, asking for a clarification from SCCA, or blatantly posting their perception of mass non-compliance here (not that vague NASA post from Ken), they waited until the biggest race of the year to file a mass protest.  I used strong language ("salivate" and "embarrass") purposefully to illustrate what this looks like.  Until someone posts that they tried to fix this situation in a friendly manner first, I'll assume that they sat on the information waiting to get people disqualified, instead of trying to get people to be compliant before they loaded their cars up for a long/expensive journey.  To me, that's poor taste.
 
Perhaps I'm naive, and the only way to make people play fair is to catch them in the act and expose them.  But I like to think that there's a better way than what happened (to the drivers).

Domm, if you read Jims post, its pretty clear that he had advanced knowledge that this was going to be a tech issue. He pulled all his heads and decided they were compliant. How did he know this was going to be an issue? You need to ask him. However, if you go back and read these boards, there are a dozen posts anticipating the drama that was going to take place in the tech shed given the Daytona protest. Also, the guys that sell us engines and parts all keep track of what the others are doing. Some talk to each other regularly and there is a fair amount that goes on behind the scenes that you and i dont know anything about. Its a bad assumption that Jim didnt know this was coming. Whether he told his customers and when, you would have to ask Jim and his customers. Will and Ken and crew did nothing wrong.

Also, assuming arguendo that Jim didnt know it was going to be an issue and he spent 16 hours examining his heads because he had nothing better to do, his position is that his heads are compliant. So you could have been as friendly as possible, told him nicely two weeks ago that you were going to protest and it wouldnt have mattered because he would have disagreed with you and told you that you were incorrectly reading the rule. in fact, for all we know, this may very well have happened.

But it all misses the point. This is not about the protestors or how they protested. Their protest was found to be timely and within the rules. They played by the rules and should never be criticized for follwoing the rules. End of story. The protesters are not the issue and should not be the subject of this discussion.

[Jamz14]

Collateral damage? How about the collateral damage of lost races by people that can never recover or have an opportunity for those wins ever again long before the runoff? Our head is compliant. My head builder understood the rules. He wanted to do more but couldn't.

[High Chair]

But it all misses the point. This is not about the protestors or how they protested. Their protest was found to be timely and within the rules. They played by the rules and should never be criticized for follwoing the rules. End of story. The protesters are not the issue and should not be the subject of this discussion.

 

 

 

Spot on! In the long run it will be good for the class. We should be thanking the people who were willing to put up the money not giving them a hard time.

[Qik Nip]

Read all 26 pages...head hurts... Is a plunge cut something about dress design?

Rick

 

[Muda]

What we've experienced here is a serious example of Rule Creep!  As one SM engine builder (not mine) once said to me, "It ain't cheating if you don't get caught".  The GCR is only as good as the infrastructure behind it that enforces the regulations.  We have two potential teardown races per year, the Runoffs and the ARRC.  The remainder of the season is covered by occasional Whistler and mechanical inspections, primarily at the Majors events, and that's spotty at best.  We have to decide who has the obligation to enforce the rule set.  Is it the sanctioning body or the participants through the protest process?  Or should there be a third body that represents our class that enforces the rules, as exists in the Mid-Atlantic SSM class?  I personally believe that the santioning body has the responsibility and is being paid to enforce the rules of each class.  The protest process should only be a stop gap measure which targets a participant with an obvious infraction. 

[Sphinx]

Like most, I don't open up my motor to verify it's legal but it's my car, my responsibility to field a compliant entry and my 3rd place thrown away.  I accept all those things and hold no hard feelings toward Will and Ken for the protest itself. 

 

However, I do take issue with the fact that Will and Ken have known about this for a year since they took possession of some high-performing cylinder heads from well-known engine builders.  For 12 months, they had a long list of options for addressing it ranging from making their fellow competitors aware of their suspicions, to contacting the SMAC/CRB for clarification to protesting at a regional or Majors event.  A lot of collateral damage might have been avoided by taking action before the Runoffs.

 

 

Talk about blaming the victim.  Brian, even if we assume that Will deliberately sandbagged on this issue, Roger Penske would call that the "Unfair Advantage."  It is up to each competitor to ensure that his car is legal, period end of story.  Honestly, it sounds like sour grapes to take issue with his timing.  And Drago wrote that he had heard that this could come and tried to take preventative measures.  So, people did have notice.

 

(I know neither Will nor Brian - or Roger Penske, nor did I run the runoffs ever).

[David L]

All the cheaters should be thrown out of the SCCA. Remember what happened to Steve G.

[Sebastian Landy]

All the cheaters should be thrown out of the SCCA. Remember what happened to Steve G.

 

That seems a bit extreme David, at least on the part of the drivers, many of whom were under the belief that they indeed had legal motors. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

That seems a bit extreme David, at least on the part of the drivers, many of whom were under the belief that they indeed had legal motors. 

 

Lynch them all, I am sure David took the time to become an expert on all things SSM anmd took his engine fully apart to be sure the his is lilly white if he could tell anyway, oh but wait its a sealed motor there could be no wrong inside there.  

 

Sebastian, yous and my motor are sealed also IMO, as neither of us have gotten inside to check, we all have to trust someone in life!  Even if we are cheaters in the end...

 

People are losing sight of reality here, even the builders thought they were compliant period amen or wouldnt have risk it, the competitors sure as hell didnt know what inside of those negines looked like, well maybe Berry, but only because he has been torn apart before and probably took at peek at it then, other than that he is not allowed to turn a wrench on his car and I know this to be fact!  Ever seen Drennan with dirty hands? 

 

Many in this class have been caught cheating over the years, most of which had no idea they were doing so, very few are knowingly doing something that will get them bounced.  

 

As for Gorilla he did not get suspended for cheating as I recall but for conduct on the track, which I have not seen since his return.

 

The sun will surly rise in the east just as it always has and SM will remain the most popular class in racing maybe in the history of the SCCA/NASA.  I have been scouring the classifieds for all those cars from the people dumping them due to all the problems in the class but I cant seem to find one to steal.  Not sure what to make of that...  Anyone who wants to sell a good car for half to get out of the class please contact me first. 

 

Ok back to the chopping block

[Johnny D]

Talk about blaming the victim.  Brian, even if we assume that Will deliberately sandbagged on this issue, Roger Penske would call that the "Unfair Advantage."  It is up to each competitor to ensure that his car is legal, period end of story.  Honestly, it sounds like sour grapes to take issue with his timing.  And Drago wrote that he had heard that this could come and tried to take preventative measures.  So, people did have notice.

 

(I know neither Will nor Brian - or Roger Penske, nor did I run the runoffs ever).

 

Ill throw my  and then go to a meeting.

 

I guess it's not the standard but why not....

 

Will knows at some point but doesn't say. 

Someone commented that tech said it's about time to Will or Ken "it's about time" Tech can't or won't say if they see something outside the list??

Can we cheat any easier with a list of things for Tech to check that's seems to published before the Runoffs??

A protest/$$ really needs to be the Wild Card ??

Carry On.

J~

[Jamz14]

All the cheaters should be thrown out of the SCCA. Remember what happened to Steve G.

No one should be thrown out. No one should be condemend for highligthing this issue. Didn't the people in violation pay enough of a price? Drennan paid for the mistake with a years work down the tubes (as well as others). The builders have paid with a huge hit to their reputation. Other competitors have paid with lost opportunities. SCCA has paid with scandal at their premiere event.

 

Everyone has paid the price. Let it go. Move on. Do better. Go race. Have fun.

[Parity]

Kyle,

 

That's it, I'm leaving the class. I'm willing to sell you my $60,000 Miata for $30,000.

[David L]

Sorry Sebastion the competitor is responsible for THEIR car. I bet you will be checking your TI SPEED motor as you can guess it is probably illegal even though you didnt ask for it.
 
And Kyle I actualy built my motor and yes it is 100% legal if you don't beleive it put up some money. You need to shut your mouth as yet again you have proven you don't know a damn thing about anything. It sounds like you have bunch of motors to start disassembling.

[Mark Lenney]

What about all of the legally untouchable track records these guys have posting all year, and more?

 

They were not DQ'd from the runoff race, so those stand?

[Waterboy]

Look at the end of the day this is all that matters....how many pages was the previous longest topic, this has got to be crushing that!

[Frank G]

I have never been to the runoffs in a Miata and I never will (although I did go in HP before Miatas existed ).  As an observer I hate this happened, but it had to happen as most folks thought this was going on for years.

 

  They sound good with explanations of removing flashing, chips, etc., but even in 1971, I knew working on that radius meant improved performance.  Making this legal in  the new rules will likely open up new gray areas in how much is too much. 

 

I don't know Jim Drago, but he was chosen (volunteered?) to make sense of all the rumors and protests flying around several years ago in SM.  He probably was in a good position to write the appeal, because he was responsible in part for the rule.  Wish he would have got it clarified before disaster struck.

 

The fact of the matter is the drivers that finished in the top 6 would most likely  have been there with compliant motors.  I found that 10 HP (crate motor to Pro motor) only improved my position a little (the nut behind the wheel is most important).  Fellow mid-pack drivers, don't give up on this class because of this -- it is a miniscule advantage.

 

Frank Graham

SM # 20

[MPR22]

Sorry Sebastion the competitor is responsible for THEIR car. I bet you will be checking your TI SPEED motor as you can guess it is probably illegal even though you didnt ask for it.
 
And Kyle I actualy built my motor and yes it is 100% legal if you don't beleive it put up some money. You need to shut your mouth as yet again you have proven you don't know a damn thing about anything. It sounds like you have bunch of motors to start disassembling.

 
 
 
Moderators::: I am offended both by the tone and the mental image created by this post please remove before others are harmed in similar fashion.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Sorry Sebastion the competitor is responsible for THEIR car. I bet you will be checking your TI SPEED motor as you can guess it is probably illegal even though you didnt ask for it.
 
And Kyle I actualy built my motor and yes it is 100% legal if you don't beleive it put up some money. You need to shut your mouth as yet again you have proven you don't know a damn thing about anything. Itsounds like you have bunch of motors to start disassembling.

 
lol...

[Ron Alan]

Well, our first non-Lamb visual image...geez  Maybe there will be a Ban after all?

[TommyB]

While its impossible to say at this point what the long term ramifications will be stemming from this event, I can  say first hand that it may have already effected me.

 

About 10 days ago I was in the process of securing a backup motor. I sent the seller my money and was in the process of arranging shipment.

 

However, on Sunday and in the midst of the post race inspections I called the seller to re-affirm that the motor he was selling me was in deed "a legal motor".( I had to leave a voice mail)

I also asked that he provide me with written confirmation of the same ,hence the application of "trust but verity".

 

Three calls and 2+ days later I'm still waiting.

 

FWIW., the seller posts on this forum so I'm hoping he will do the right thing and return my money if the motor does not pass muster. I hate for this to get ugly.

 

Tom B.