153 replies to this topic

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I hope everyone knows that the petition means nothing unless you send a letter into the CRB.

There is an announcement on the petition site with the link to the CRB and will only take you a sec.to send in a quick letter in. So make your vote count and send a quick letter in with how you feel about this.

My letter # 15654

[Brandon]

Not looking to 'pad numbers' or anything, but I thought it best to submit two letters tot he CRB.

 

1. Denouncing the "stock only" head proposal resulting from the "Topeka Pow-Wow" - letter # 15579

2. Effectively tightening-up the existing rules (aka 'The Petition') with additional definitions and a minor addition of permitting deburring/blending of the STR within a certain number (left the number blank, TBD) - letter # 15581

 

What's the over/under on the total number of pages in FT for 12/2014?  

[Mark Lenney]

Please remove my signature from your petition. If I could find a way to do it I would.

 

When I signed the petition it specified .025" of "debur".

 

Now it reads .250".

 

 

These are two different things, and I don't know how you could edit the document after it was signed, but that is fraudulent.

 

This will now allow cars found non compliant at the runoffs to be compliant? What a sham.

 

 

 

My position is: Leave the rules alone, let us run the 2014 compliant heads, get rid of the heads that are not, and do not force the legitimate SM masses to cough up thousands to stay in the game.

 

 

That is what my letter to CRB says.

 

Mark Lenney

 

 

 

 

[FTodaro]

Please remove my signature from your petition. If I could find a way to do it I would.

 

When I signed the petition it specified .025" of "debur".

 

Now it reads .250".

 

 

These are two different things, and I don't know how you could edit the document after it was signed, but that is fraudulent.

 

This will now allow cars found non compliant at the runoffs to be compliant? What a sham.

 

 

 

My position is: Leave the rules alone, let us run the 2014 compliant heads, get rid of the heads that are not, and do not force the legitimate SM masses to cough up thousands to stay in the game.

 

 

That is what my letter to CRB says.

 

Mark Lenney

 

Mark I do not know how you un-sign the petition maybe Tom Sager can aid you in doing that. You certainly can send a letter to the CRB, Mazda and John expressing your opinion.

 

There was no fraud involved, an error was made by in in the text of the document but the diagram was always correct. It was caught within the first 30 to 60 minutes of posting and we corrected it as well as posted on the boards about the mistake.

 

As far as the numbers involved. I believe that SCCA, Mazda and NASA are going to do their own math on the subject, but if you send your letters your voice will be counted, I hope that helps.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Mr. Lenney, 

 

I can understand your frustration at this, nobody tried to mislead you or anyone else in any way as I know the person that posted the petition and it was proof read several times, after Tom posted the petition it was found by someone else and brought to his attention that the text and picture were contradictory.

 

Then a short conversation ensued that had the collective group that wrote the petition that the text was a typo and it needed to match the picture while even the pic is confusing to some.  

 

The measurement is from the bottom of valve seat to end of the debur it is not the measurement of the debur itself like the diagram shows.  This is for the CRB SMAC Working committee or whoever to sort out it is not our mission or charge as racers.

 

The petition you signed was and still is a statement that you did not want to go to stock heads.

 

I am sure your name can be removed if you so wish, hope this helps all understand what Mr. Lenney's post is asking.

 

Thank you 

The Caveman

 

PS. I had no input on the writing of this petition this was done by the smart people!!!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Mr. Lenney

 

Also I just went back to look up some things and you were poster 196 which was a full 24 hours after the petition hit the website, and about 23 hours after the text had been changed...  

 

If you have signers remorse I am sure you can removed...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

 

1

 

AJ Roderick

 Chardon   419207 Nov 09, 2014, 02:58   2 frank Todaro  columbus 135601 415496 Nov 09, 2014, 03:01   3 Michael Collins  Woodbine   316827 Nov 09, 2014, 03:18   4 Jedd Fahnestock  STEPHENSON   416250 Nov 09, 2014, 03:25   5 Ian Brooks  Timonium   431963 Nov 09, 2014, 03:25   6 The signatory decided not to show his/her name on the Internet. 7 Christopher Haldeman  Anna 149055 412747 Nov 09, 2014, 03:30   8 Mark Nichols  Santa Clarita 109884 315036-1 Nov 09, 2014, 03:34   9 AARON PETTIPAS  BEDFORD   405230 Nov 09, 2014, 03:43   10 shawn slattery

 

IN the name of full transparency these are the only possible singers of the petition with contradictory langue vs. the pic.  any of you in this list this is your chance you change your vote if you would like to.

 

And thank you SM community for speaking up by signing onto this petition.  

[Rob Burgoon]

So this petition is suggesting unlimited blending by removal of material to a max depth of 1/4" below the ferrious valve seat.

 

The breakdown as I see it is:

-Everyone will want to improve their engine's current blending at some point

-Almost everyone but the worst cheaters remain legal

-Engine builders possibly get more business as people upgrade their heads, but not as much as throwing away all the exisiting heads.

-Techable, aside from deliberate variance in valve seat depth and thickness.

 

 

The Topeka proposal was:

-Almost everyone with non-junkyard heads are now illegal

-Almost everyone needs a new head, cheats and honest alike

-Engine builders build new heads without plunge cuts

-Not techable either?

 

Strict enforcement of 2014 rules, with tighter plunge cut rules:

-illegal blending and deburring makes many(?) pro engines illegal

-people with misbehaving builders get burned

-honest folks that watched their builder carefully are ok

-creative folks that put in crooked yet legal plunges get burned

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Rob if to many people get burned the class suffers...

 

Who watched their builder build and engine?  You mean people whos engine builder tells them the engine is ok are good?

 

Caution her Rob, I know more then one racer asking his builder is everything legal to get an "OF course it is"  only to tell the builder they are going to nasa champs or runoffs or there is a mechanical protest written and looking for the driver while he is on phone with builder and builder tells him at that moment Hell No it aint Legal get the hell out of there right now!

 

You may laugh but these are all true sadly!

[Ron Alan]

I have not signed though I'm in favor of allowing legal plunge cuts as the rules were  written. If a dozen or so words need to be added to the current rules to "clarify" any confusion...that would seem the simplest. 

 

In my brief years here, based on what i have seen first hand and what i have read about, certain illegal mods(at the time) that were deemed not "techable" have essentially been incorporated into the rules and made legal. Dewhurst posted a list at some point and predicted the STR blend would some how be made legal...I agreed.

 

Ironically, not only did those at the top say no, they said f%ck no!! And in the process have disenfranchised a lot of participants who pay attention and feel this is a huge over reach. It sucks so many participants have got sucked in unknowingly and are now forced to do something. But to pull over the next 100 cars on the freeway and give 75 of them tickets(25 are stock)when only 25 of them were speeding(blended STR) makes zero sense to me...maybe I'm just clueless?

 

I can see why many have an issue with .25" written in this proposal. I didnt look at Rich Powers pictures but i'm pretty sure .25" from the bottom of the ferrous seat metal puts you around the corner on the STR...which is where material was removed that has been found non-compliant correct?

 

A comment was made last weekend at the NASA Western Champs when our heads were on the table...that the tech guys had no idea what they were looking at. Well, maybe, all i know is I didnt either. But the one comment that was made was that the lack of TOOL marks anywhere was a good thing. I think the rules as written(with future clarification)is techable. But i'm not in favor of specifing a dimension that would seem to incorporate an area that is at the heart of this controversy. My 2 bits.....

[James York]

Mr. Lenney
 
Also I just went back to look up some things and you were poster 196 which was a full 24 hours after the petition hit the website, and about 23 hours after the text had been changed...  
 
If you have signers remorse I am sure you can removed...

The local mafia showed up on his door.......

[TEAM MEDICARE]

This proposal seems like a reasonable set of rules to me. I plan to continue racing on my almost two year old Rossini built motor thats still kicking ass (took pole at last MARRS race but got dqed for being three pounds underweight after the race because i pooped before the race) and im not even sure what if anything is done to my STR. I know some of my competitors probably have this mod and id hate to see them have to replace motors they paid good money for. Maybe my next Rossini will have the modded STR and be even stronger!

3 pounds is impressive if not a world record.  about the same as a cow !

[TEAM MEDICARE]

I think it's got to the point where this should also be changed.

 

 

A. PURPOSE AND INTENT

The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition.

[GROOTS]

Letter sent to the CRB today !! 

[dstevens]

Dave you questioned my comments a few days ago about not really knowing what the class wanted, While I still cannot say that definitively, It is starting to become clearer. I would caution not to speak for Mazda, from what i know, only second hand, Mazda is not interested in their pocket book IMO i think they have the best of intentions for the class. 

I'm not speaking for Mazda and I think that is pretty clear.  They certainly do have the ability to not support the class as they have in the past.  If this wasn't a concern they wouldn't have become involved as they haven't in last 11 or so years I've been following it. I think it's pretty clear where they want to be based on what they have said publicly and in support of the pending change.  It's not the money, it's the effectiveness of the platform and if it's perceived and a cheat 'um up. whatcha brung class where the other guy is going to ram into you that isn't going to serve their interests.

 

I think they do have good intentions but their solution is obviously different than yours. You aren't looking at it in the same way they are.   They are looking at it in the way of getting back to how the class was, or at least how they think it was.  You and the petitioners are looking at it from the "save as many people as possible money and grief of a change while still penalizing the most egregious offenders.  i applaud the effort the team work involved in getting the change stopped.  What you propose doesn't contribute to what Mazda stated be getting the class back to the roots.  If anything it goes into the opposite direction and allows mild porting, more than would be allowed under plunge cut rules.  If you want a class that does that it's fine with me.  Based on what they have stated publicly I don't see them wanting it that way.  Racers not doing their own wrenching or not knowing what they have in their engines is the choice of the individual racer and not the problem of the sanction or Mazda.  Any bad parts are between you and your builder.  Those costs were chosen by the racers and shouldn't be a factor in the cost of the rule change.  However, the couple grand for the parts is.  It sucks to be in that boat.  By the same token, if someone can't afford a couple grand over the next few season to phase in they likely don't have quite the disposable funds to race hobby sports cars in the first place.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I'm not speaking for Mazda and I think that is pretty clear.  They certainly do have the ability to not support the class as they have in the past.  If this wasn't a concern they wouldn't have become involved as they haven't in last 11 or so years I've been following it. I think it's pretty clear where they want to be based on what they have said publicly and in support of the pending change.  It's not the money, it's the effectiveness of the platform and if it's perceived and a cheat 'um up. whatcha brung class where the other guy is going to ram into you that isn't going to serve their interests.
 
I think they do have good intentions but their solution is obviously different than yours. You aren't looking at it in the same way they are.   They are looking at it in the way of getting back to how the class was, or at least how they think it was.  You and the petitioners are looking at it from the "save as many people as possible money and grief of a change while still penalizing the most egregious offenders.  i applaud the effort the team work involved in getting the change stopped.  What you propose doesn't contribute to what Mazda stated be getting the class back to the roots.  If anything it goes into the opposite direction and allows mild porting, more than would be allowed under plunge cut rules.  If you want a class that does that it's fine with me.  Based on what they have stated publicly I don't see them wanting it that way.  Racers not doing their own wrenching or not knowing what they have in their engines is the choice of the individual racer and not the problem of the sanction or Mazda.  Any bad parts are between you and your builder.  Those costs were chosen by the racers and shouldn't be a factor in the cost of the rule change.  However, the couple grand for the parts is.  It sucks to be in that boat.  By the same token, if someone can't afford a couple grand over the next few season to phase in they likely don't have quite the disposable funds to race hobby sports cars in the first place.

I understand what you are saying. My stand on the issue is,if we go back to a stock head and don't change anything with parity my 1.6 would be a big paper weight. So my vote is for the change because it would be better then going back to a stock head.

Now if I knew they where addressing the parity issue my vote might be diff. So that's why I'm voting for it because of the lack of help the 1.6 has got over the last 2 years. Just look at the last 3-4 years of runoffs and how many none 99+ cars have been in the top 10,hardly any and the rules haven't changed to address the issue.

[FTodaro]

Dave one thing is for sure it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Personally, i feel better about the situation in that I think everyone has or should have had by now, an opportunity  to voice their opinion. It seams that the decision makers are wanting and encouraging our input. I guess time will tell, what that really means, but i think we have voiced all the different points of view. You cannot complain about that. The best decisions are made when all points of view are exposed and digested. I think we have done that.

 

It is going to be interesting to see how the decision is made and where we go from here. . A difficult one for sure. There are no easy answers to this one. Good points being made in both camps.

 

We are guessing that at some point in the near future another announcement will be coming out letting us know where we go from here.

 

My point about Mazda is that they could be playing one or more rolls in this process. It could be to drive policy or direction of class, or it could be to provide technical assistance. Or Both i suppose.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

I hope everyone knows that the petition means nothing unless you send a letter into the CRB.

There is an announcement on the petition site with the link to the CRB and will only take you a sec.to send in a quick letter in. So make your vote count and send a quick letter in with how you feel about this.

My letter # 15654

what a joke who is on the cbr

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

what a joke who is on the cbr

Idk !

Hey Jimmy there are two ahead of us, your not helping mom! Lmao !!!

[Andrew Charbonneau]

call to action spec  miata class join and build a new nation were men are equal and drink alot and get away from the world .

ask not what you can do for me at the cbr but do for the rule book so help me god.

 

my vote revolt stand up for action hit the pocket book make a change because they are in your pocket book

andrew charbonneau 1 800 404 7782

 

no action without reaction i will pledge no race a national for specmiata until fixed 2500 cars x 200 dollar avg math please