174 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

In the same respect, careful what you ask, for you may get it...

Want to catch these guys, be prepared to spend some time in tech yourself.

J~

[Jaime Florence]

Some very experienced people have explained that spec'ing camber is a very bad idea, in fact dumb. They have also mentioned that it has been a very challenging thing in pro events, much less at our level (with our resources).

This spec (camber) was removed from our class in the past. History doesn't need to repeat itself here.

John,
Please make sure you do your homework very carefully on this one. I don't think your own mechanical / car prep experience is sufficient to make this call responsibly without it.

This class isn't broken damnit. If you follow history things are better than they've ever been, except for this recent issue. It's a hell of a lot more benign than "the old days". Let's resolve the STR issue and move on.

If you want to push hard on setting a bunch of rules, maybe that effort could be spent promoting SSM.

[chris haldeman]

Some very experienced people have explained that spec'ing camber is a very bad idea, in fact dumb. They have also mentioned that it has been a very challenging thing in pro events, much less at our level (with our resources).

This spec (camber) was removed from our class in the past. History doesn't need to repeat itself here.

John,
Please make sure you do your homework very carefully on this one. I don't think your own mechanical / car prep experience is sufficient to make this call responsibly without it.

This class isn't broken damnit. If you follow history things are better than they've ever been, except for this recent issue. It's a hell of a lot more benign than "the old days". Let's resolve the STR issue and move on.

If you want to push hard on setting a bunch of rules, maybe that effort could be spent promoting SSM.

+++1

[LarryKing]

Rules?

 

We don need no steen king rules.

[Todd Green]

Less than optimal for sure, but we've been through that a couple times now and there is roughly zero chance of new spings or shocks. But travel at the "right height" isn't much of a problem since adding the Fat Cat kit. Any lower than they allow, especially in the NA, is a bad way to get camber.

 

I'm running ~4" (pinch weld to ground) with fat cats and travel is definitely an issue.  I wouldn't expect to change springs (they are not a wear item like shocks) and are close enough.  Also curious as to when the shock spec was changed (or what did you mean by being through this a couple of times)?  But yeah, I expect that the chances of getting shocks changed is somewhere in the ballpark of having minimum weights lowered.

[screaming monkey]

Maybe SM should be suspended as a National class for one year while the rule book is clarified, rewritten or modified. SM drivers can compete in regionals or STL with current cars. Then relaunch the class for 2016. Engine builders can help anybody they sold an engine to with the costs of turning an illegal motor into a legal one and Mazdaspeed can make a line of performance parts that address camber and ride height issues, purchasable from the Mazdaspeed website. After everything that lead up to and ultimately ruined the 2014 Runoffs for Mazda and SM, maybe we don't deserve a Runoffs for our class in 2015. .02

[Steve Scheifler]

Very interesting idea. I don't support it, but it is very intriguing to contemplate how it would play out, especially with the "big tents" (my new term for teams, formal or loosely aligned by builder). I don't think the club would penalize everyone in the class even though it is likely that a large majority of Runoffs participants had similar heads. But interesting.

[Sean - MiataCage]

This thread kinda turned into the camber thread for a while, which was fine, but the intent of it was to call out other known areas of issue so we can get them addressed and move forward and not have another major setback in the future.  I think making a camber rule is a waste and we should just open it up and make either an offset bushing legal or spec a maximum distance from the spindle attachment points so we don't get guys with Kentucky hot wrenches bending things way beyond the point that they could still have some structural integrity.

 

So, with that in mind..... Here's another example:

 

VVT Computers......  I'm told they can not be checked because of the immobilizer issue.  Not sure if true or not, but if it is true and the computers can not be checked then we have another major area for concern.  If they can be checked (off site) but not swapped out that is equally as bad.  I believe we need the ability to swap computers at the larger events to keep them honest.  We had a computer done a few years back for one of our 25 hour cars and the guy that did it told us he did 100's of computer flashes for SpecMiata's every year.  Don't know how true that is or not, but that's what I was told.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think of gray areas that need to be addressed.  If we start bringing some of these issues out into the public domain maybe we can collectively find ways to address them and fix them moving forward.

As I have stated before, I believe the SM Ruleset will ALWAYS be a work in progress as more and more things are caught and will get better and better with time.

 

Sean

[James York]

...

 

So, with that in mind..... Here's another example:

 

VVT Computers......  I'm told they can not be checked because of the immobilizer issue.  Not sure if true or not, but if it is true and the computers can not be checked then we have another major area for concern.  If they can be checked (off site) but not swapped out that is equally as bad.  I believe we need the ability to swap computers at the larger events to keep them honest.  We had a computer done a few years back for one of our 25 hour cars and the guy that did it told us he did 100's of computer flashes for SpecMiata's every year.  Don't know how true that is or not, but that's what I was told.

 

....

Sean

 

And the result was open FP regulators and timing wheels.  While not as perfect as what can be done with maps in the ECU, it pretty much makes it a waste of time and $$.

[Steve Scheifler]

Maybe true on the '99-00 but my understanding is that the VVT can be fully remapped for timing and fuel, among other things, which is a LOT different than what the others were said to have at the time.

[James York]

I think you have out of date data.....  or maybe we are saying the same thing differently.  However, not a big deal either way.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I cannot say for certain if illegal computers is widespread or not.

I will say this, every used car i have purchased came equipped with an illegal computer. One even had a cord connected to it that you could run to your laptop.

I have found all of these while on the dyno when trying to tune the car but was unable to do it with fp and timing. The car with the cord also had a hogged out timing wheel long before timing was legal. That particular car was an 01 and it would sit and rev on grid like a cheated up 1.6... Once found and changed that car idled correctly.

So it is for sure out there although in anyany 99-00 car I can't believe it would be worth the money spent. As for 01 I cannot say. They can be changed at the track you just need to have all the parts key, ignitions switch, ignition switch ring, immobilizer, ecu. It would be a pita but it can be done.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Any ecu can be cheated up and like Kyle said it would be hard to change between cars at the track. There is to many components that are programmed into the ecu.

When I raced bikes we where a privateer team sponsored by Suzuki and got our ecu's straight from Suzuki. In the class we raced supersport the only thing you were able to do to the bikes were jet and pipe it. The ecu's we got from Suzuki were remaped and gave the bike an extra 7-9 hp. It also had a stock part number on it and couldn't tell the diff. You could go to any motorcycle dealer and try and order it,it would let you order it but it would never come in it always said it was on back order.

Funny how any form of racing cheats !

[Zauskycop]

Just have everyone run a sealed, locked,  aftermarket computer. (If it can be done ) Yes, $500 or so.   End of the cheating.

 

On Mr. Mooney's idea of shutting down the class nationally for a year, I sorta like it.   One idea I had was why doesn't Mazda cast a bunch of heads, and have a "swap" program.   You give them the illegal head, and get a new "stock" one at cost???  

 

A.  It gets everyone on stock heads

B.  It gets rid of a bunch of "illegal" heads

 

Tracy Ramsey

[Steve Scheifler]

Any ecu can be cheated up...

That's WAY oversimplified. Many need a replacement chip which can at least be detected. Others can be directly changed but only to a limited degree without re-chip. Some are incredibly difficult to crack (NSX for example, nothing like typical Honda - ask the guys at Hondata why they gave up).

Perhaps someone has FULL control over the '99-00, I hadn't heard, but is that without a chip? What I hear about the VVT is full control, multiple maps, and delayed/auto switching to the race map so it tests OK when first started.

True cell by cell access to fuel and especially timing maps is a lot different than simply shifting the overall timing and fuel curves up or down. How much gain is possible depends on a lot of variables so what some other engine does is irrelevant.

[AW33COM]

While we are at it. 

 

* Establish minimum weight without the driver, and ballast per SM model. 

 

With a single run across the scales you'll be able to test legality of many different things. 

This alone will make people "fix" issues, which are hard to catch otherwise. 

[Ron Alan]

While we are at it. 
 
* Establish minimum weight without the driver, and ballast per SM model. 
 
With a single run across the scales you'll be able to test legality of many different things. 
This alone will make people "fix" issues, which are hard to catch otherwise.

What?? Youre first statement makes zero sense...

How about examples of what you're looking for in the 2nd statement? Fix? Hard to catch?

[38bfast]

There is absolutely no feasible way to tech ECUs. There is way to many variations out there. The equipment would be very expensive and would take a trained professional to use. This is why the IT group went to open ECU rule and SM went to adjustable fuel pressure and timing. 

[Danny Steyn]

Please do not dismiss the issue of Camber and ride height. I understand and respect the posts expressing the folly in having these mandated and teched, if at all possible, but I encourage you to read further.....

 

The issue of Camber really does need to be addressed and soon. This could be as damaging to SM as the STR.

 

For where I stand I would say that a lot of cars out there are running camber in excess of what is allowed by the current rule set.

 

Remember you cannot cut bumpstops, you cannot bend spindles, etc. These are NOT allowed in the current ruleset, yet there are a lot of cars with these mods racing today, and with other variations as well. Whether excessive camber is performance enhancing or not is not the thing we need to be worried about. It is just that it is purely ILLEGAL by the current ruleset, just in the way that cleaning up the STR is.

 

There are many cars out there at around 4 degrees of camber, which is absolutely not possible on stock, unaltered suspension components, even with the Fat Cats.

 

Which means that ANYONE could protest the top 10 cars at a Majors event and possibly have the top 10 all DQ'd. Of course they would all appeal and say I hit this really big bump inT3 and bent the spindle, and a whole lot of other nonsense. But you get the point

 

So either we say we are going to allow bent spindles, cut bump stops etc, or we say, let the paper be thrown.  

 

So while we are at it, lets not forget this potential disaster just waiting to happen

[RussMcB]

Danny, do you think there should be a rule stating max camber and/or minimum ride height? 

 

I do agree those two would be easier to tech than bent parts.  Not easy, but doable.  There are similar rules in other classes.