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Rule change for 1.6 intake?

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#201
Bruce Wilson

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In the NW, that last hold out of the 1.6, most of the fastest drivers built 1.8s in 2014 and parked or sold their 1.6s.  That would be 5 or so drivers all within about a  year in the Oregon region, and even more than that in the SFR region.

 

Blake, did he pass you?  I'm guessing not, or you would have said so. This idea of 1.6s can keep up with me or great qualifying positions or fast lap times is old and worn thin.  We all race to win, not the satisfaction of pushing someone.  It's all about the $5 dollar trophy... the only fact that should be considered. 

 

That is the other problem, the longer the club leaders have drug this out, the more the 1.6 will need to be an overdog to stop the trend, due to exodus of the fast drivers.  It appears to many that short-term thinking driven by business may have been what fueled this dilemma.  The new leaders need to consider this and do the right thing going forward. 

 

As my letters to the CRB have stated, "the Miata, being the best production racecar ever, deserves better than this".

 

If any of you have yet to make your thoughts on this subject be known to the SCCA, and agree with what is being said, you too can make a difference by going to www.crbscca.com and commenting.  You don't need to say a lot or be a fast driver for that matter, and you can copy the thoughts and comments that you see here on the forum and make it a part of the "official" conversation and decision making process!

 

And for any of you who think, this is a personal quest for my own wins, let me say this.  My days of campaigning for a championship of even a Majors win are over in SM.  I may still be able to throw down a fast lap or two, but I'm no longer able or willing to put in the commitment that is needed to put a perfect race together, let alone a whole season in such an ultra competitive class.  I have a business to run and I'm not getting any younger!

 

Edited to clarify "leaders"


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#202
James York

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In the NW, that last hold out of the 1.6, most of the fastest drivers built 1.8s in 2014 and parked or sold their 1.6s.  That would be 5 or so drivers all within about a  year in the Oregon region, and even more than that in the SFR region.

 

 

 

That sounds like a move for "good".  Those fast 5 are still racing in 1.8s, and the ones that sold their 1.6L added that many "new" drivers added to the party.  Net gain.
 

 

That is the other problem, the longer the class leaders have drug this out, .....

 

 

Just curious, who are these people you speak?  Lead pack racers.... one of the committees that respond to member input?  Who are you blaming?


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#203
Bruce Wilson

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That sounds like a move for "good".  Those fast 5 are still racing in 1.8s, and the ones that sold their 1.6L added that many "new" drivers added to the party.  Net gain.

WTF? :)  

 

See my edit RE leaders.


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#204
James York

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WTF? :)

 

See my edit RE leaders.

I thought you were replying to Jim about a list of top drivers sitting on the sideline waiting with their 1.6.  Maybe I read your reply wrong, but it didn't seem to me to support a conclusion of fewer drivers participating for that reason.  I'll just stick with my observations from our division.  No top driver is sitting out because they have a 1.6L.  

 

But who knows.  Everyone views this topic through their slant on reality.  


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#205
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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Please list these great drivers that are sitting out because of the rules?   :) Are we getting Alonso in the 1.6 when we get the rules "right', he apparently hasn't signed yet, he might be waiting for these changes?   :)


I'm not saying they will return, I'm just saying a lot of people left this class because of all the droma. I for one don't want to see people leave our class if anything I would like to see it grow out of control.

Like it was said before,there are plenty of other racing sanctions that have multiple diff.cars engines and weights and they seem to get it to work pretty well.

I understand that every track is diff.and will favor one model car over the other,but maybe this class has gotten to a point that we need to advance to the next level. Maybe we have to set the rules per car per track weights,plates,ect.... To get them as close as possible. I think there is enough data out there over the last 5 years from all the tracks and models to come up with a set of rules that would work. Yes someone would have to collect all the data and review it and should be able to come up with a great set of rules. It will just take someone's time and effort to analyze all the data and summit it to the board.

Just a thought !
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#206
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I like the concept, and was thinking something along the same lines... but more at a regional/divisional level.  So, a set of tracks in a geographical area would carry a certain weight for each type of car.  But let's say we did it by track...
 
Q1.  What happens when a track has several different configurations?  (e.g. Buttonwillow)
 
Q2.  How often would adjustments be made, and who is going to own that work?
 
Q3.  What parameters should be used to make the adjustments?  Qualifying laps?  Race laps?  Both?  FTOD?  Fastest guy/gal in each type of car, or top X in each?  
 
Q4.  What are all the possible ways one could game this system, and what should be done to plug those holes?
 
Again... I like the concept.  But it's a complicated beast that would require an awful lot of thought and effort up front... as well as ongoing maintenance post-implementation.  I'd love for the folks at MyLaps to come up with some analytics to help facilitate this sort of thing.  Certainly a wealth of data there that could help quantify (or dispel) some claims.

 

 

Good questions, and I don't think I'm educated enough on the club legislation to give final answers, but I'll throw out a few conceptual ideas.

 

1. A majority of tracks that have different configurations will still have the same corners, hills, and straights involved, so I don't think a weight change would be mandatory. If it's a completely different track layout, racers could file a petition with 3 races where there hasn't been a 1.6 in the top 5 to get the weight brought down on that certain configuration. Just an idea.

 

2. People have outlined a discrepancy between 1.6 qualifying results and racing results. I am hoping we will get to play with intakes to avoid heat soak next year, and therefore eliminate this variation. With that, weight adjustments would be made by the SM regional director, whenever a 1.6 feels they are at a disadvantage in a race. The 1.6 owner would have to submit dyno results to show that he is at the pointy end of a 1.6's legal competitiveness, and show video + data that he is getting left for dead by 1.8's at certain points of the track while driving the balls off the car. This would be done again post-changes to make sure that the time gained from the adjustment doesn't put you at an advantage in terms of lap time. A lot of this is subjective, but again, I really don't care if I at least have the CHANCE to make my 1.6 competitive at tracks like Laguna.

 

3. Race laps + finishing results. The video or data would have to show how much time is being lost to the 1.8 in certain sectors. The two best data points would be the fastest from each chassis/motor combo. Assuming they are both legal, you have the ability to avoid mid-pack guys' complaints for less weight by telling them that ____ is driving a legal 1.6  at the current weight and fighting in the top 3, so you need to either make your car as fast as his, or improve your driving  :)

 

4. Video + data could be useless if the driver is light footing it. That's why you need the SM director to make sure he is driving the balls off a competitive car (check dyno), and that he is indeed flooring it (video data overlay - throttle application). I'm sure there are many other things, but the system is so flexible that it won't let a 1.6 run away from the field for more than one race, because they will be brought in for data review to check for the "light footing" mentioned above. 1.8's will also be brought in to make sure they aren't light footing to let the 1.6 get away in an attempt to increase his weight for the next race.

 

All just ideas, and they would need to be far more in depth to be implemented. I would do it, but the fact that few people have responded to the basic concept means it most likely isn't worth my time... especially during finals week. I also agree with you that this would be more of a regional experiment, and could then be implemented to national events after working out the kinks.

 

 

I thought you were replying to Jim about a list of top drivers sitting on the sideline waiting with their 1.6.  Maybe I read your reply wrong, but it didn't seem to me to support a conclusion of fewer drivers participating for that reason.  I'll just stick with my observations from our division.  No top driver is sitting out because they have a 1.6L.  

 

But who knows.  Everyone views this topic through their slant on reality.  

 

I think I am a good data point for this. I just finished my first year of racing, and feel that I have developed into a very fast driver. Last month at the NASA western championships, I finished 4th in a 1.6 at Sonoma Raceway. This is a track that 1.6's are still a weapon at, and if I had a fresh motor it would have given me the 3-4hp I needed to fight with the top dogs in 1.8's (they were half a second faster). With these results, next year I want to compete in the Teen Mazda Challenge and NASA Championships to give myself a shot at the Mazda Club Racer Shootout, BUT I have a 1.6.

 

Let's get this out there, I will not win the NASA championships next year at Laguna in a 1.6, unless every 1.8 explodes. If the Teen Mazda Challenge has a race at Auto Club Speedway, I will not win in a 1.6, again unless every 1.8 explodes. The fact that my chances of going pro in the racing world are limited by my equipment in a SPEC series, is disappointing to say the least. In my case, I may have a sponsor for next year that will let me rent a 1.8 for those events or upgrade to a 1.8 for the whole season. If I didn't have this opportunity, like many others, my car WOULD be parked for those events, saving my money for races that I actually stand a shot at winning.

 

This only applies to a VERY small percentage of racers - talented, competitive, low budget - likely no more than one or two racers in each region, but I don't think that means it should be ignored.


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#207
James York

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are limited by my equipment in a SPEC series

 

Here is one of the issues of our class... It is NOT a spec series regardless of what the name of the class says.  


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#208
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Here is one of the issues of our class... It is NOT a spec series regardless of what the name of the class says.  

 

Agreed, 1.6 and 1.8 will never be the same. So let me be faster in some places and slower in other places, balance it out. This varies from track to track, which is why I'm trying to suggest the track dependent weight restrictions.


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#209
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Todd, no disrespect.

 

Here is a great example of a 1.6 being there for the win at the 2012 Road America June Sprints.

Post # 1 and post #2 are the entire race. I've watched this more than once and never viewed the 1.6 with the capabilitiy on it's own after T1 opening lap be able to pass the cars ahead of it. The cars ahead were not 1.6's or NA 1.8's.

 

http://mazdaracers.c...deo/?&pid=31479

 

If I failed to see the 1.6 pass without a racing incindent please post the minute of the pass. 


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#210
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It is NOT a spec series regardless of what the name of the class says. 

Some of us still think SM should be a spec class.


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#211
James York

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Some of us still think SM should be a spec class.

It is what it is....

 

I think a lot things, but unfortunately I am not king so I have to comply with the majority or other governing bodies. 


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#212
Cnj

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Some of us still think SM should be a spec class.


Interesting. So help me understand how you would propose to make it Spec. One supplier of cars with sealed engines? Select one of the three models and ditch the others? That would make it a spec class. But how would this move to SPEC happen? Or are you just venting and don't actualy have a proposal? I'm intrigued.

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#213
Johnny D

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I'm more interested in who's Bench talking to named Todd.

But I digress.

J~


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#214
James York

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Agreed, 1.6 and 1.8 will never be the same. So let me be faster in some places and slower in other places, balance it out. This varies from track to track, which is why I'm trying to suggest the track dependent weight restrictions.

I applaud your effort and thinking.  However, in the SCCA I imagine you would have a better chance at approval and implementation of a proposed solution to make the 1.6 drive more like a 1.8.


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#215
Tom Hampton

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I'm more interested in who's Bench talking to named Todd.

But I digress.

J~

I was confused by this, as well.  But, couldn't be bothered to read back and see if the mysterious "Todd" had participated further back in the thread. 


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#216
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Maybe it's Toddear3793 without his glasses on.

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#217
Johnny D

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I would propose this but I think it's already legal...

 

Take a NB engine.

Take the NB suspension.

Take all the NB electrical, etc.

Put it in a NB tub.

And run it like that.

Make sure the years are correct of course.

Sell the rest for beer $

J~


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#218
trimless

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I had a 1.6 push me down the back straight at Road Atlanta.  There are fast, compliant 1.6 cars out there still racing.

 

But don't let facts get in the way of a good story or anything.....

You're welcome Mr. BC !


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#219
Tom Hampton

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I would propose this but I think it's already legal...

 

Take a NB engine.

Take the NB suspension.

Take all the NB electrical, etc.

Put it in a NB tub.

And run it like that.

Make sure the years are correct of course.

Sell the rest for beer $

J~

 

I've heard you can actually buy them already put together like this---kinda like a preassembled "kit". 


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#220
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J~


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