Jump to content

Photo

SM 1.6 only class

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
390 replies to this topic

#101
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

Are you basically wanting people to get off their ass and actually do something rather than just get on here and complain? :unsure:  :spin:  :prayer:  :P   

 

 

I agree with the six speed in principle, but in reality that would be horrendous mistake.  I built one for my STL car and it is VERY difficult to drive and I feel I am as qualified or more so than 90 % of all who would be using it.  If you get a group together and would like to test, I will let you borrow one to prove the point. 

Your point 1:

I've posted my temp reduction at the air filter. Always less than 100*F, what's under hood temp 170*F. Call it 70-80* reduction and use whoevers power increase per 10*F reduction you like and do the math.

I believe providing this temp info is getting off my ass. Again, I don't write letters any more.

 

Your point 2:

Out of the box thinking forgetting about legality. How about proto type gates 6 inches above the swivel ball just below your green monster head. As compared the 1 1/2 inch lever arm below the swivel which works the rod to the close gates.

 

:bigsquaregrin:


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#102
38bfast

38bfast

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,113 posts
  • Location:Sterling Heights, MI
  • Region:OVR
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:38

I think it's time for the 1.6 to be its own class.


National / majors adding another class is going to be rough sell. On a regional basis very doable.
Ralph Provitz
V2 Motorsports

#103
38bfast

38bfast

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,113 posts
  • Location:Sterling Heights, MI
  • Region:OVR
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:38

I think it's time for the 1.6 to be its own class.


National / majors adding another class is going to be rough sell. On a regional basis very doable.
Ralph Provitz
V2 Motorsports

#104
Brandon

Brandon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 765 posts
  • Location:North Jersey
  • Region:NNJR
  • Car Year:1996
  • Car Number:48SM

Brandon-

 

I'm sure you mean well, and have the good of the class at heart...but, I find this post and attitude asinine and self-serving.  Since you are on the SMAC you should know better, And you should realize that while you are on the SMAC, speaking in public CANNOT be disclaimed as "my own personal opinion, not endorsed by the SMAC".  There is no such thing as "off the record."  

 

I have neither the knowlege nor resources to determine what (or if) the 1.6 needs something.  So, my lack of a letter is not indicative of a lack of interest, rather a lack of knowlege.  I don't want a hand-out.  I want to KNOW that the 1.6 is at a disadvantage, and to be given an appropriate competition adjustment to put me at parity...IF IT IS FOUND TO BE WARRANTED.  What should I do, send a letter every month saying, "don't forget the 1.6, sure would like to see some data from the SMAC and the super committee.  Yep, I'm stil here."  Seriously.

 

What ever happened to the super SM committee and all the testing that they were going to do?  Where are those results?  How much adjustment does that suggest is needed?  <----- dripping in sarcasm, for the impaired.  

 

Frankly I think it is YOUR (THE SMAC) job to tell US that there needs to be an adjustment, and what that is.  Gather the data, analyze it, and tell us what the results are, and what your recommendations are.  Include the pros and cons of each possibility, and give us some hard facts (HP/Tq, lap times, corner speeds, acceleration rates, etc).  Gather whatever experts you need to gather.  But, stop blaming the class for not knowing what to do.

 

I don't want a random adjustment that may or may not give me an advantage or put me at a disadvantage.  If I'm at a disadvantage, I want to know by how much, and I want to know what rule adjustment is going to do to fix it, and by how much.  

 

If all you are going to do is throw out random ideas without having any knowlege of the actual benefit (or harm), and then you are going to "call out" the 1.6 owners for not speaking up....THEN I AM CALLING YOU OUT FOR COPPING OUT on your responsibility to the class.  Do your job, don't expect me to do it for you. 

 

Frankly the governing bodies, and SM super committee operate with so much aloofness, and secrecy that it just pisses me off to think about.  So, I just focus on going out and racing and having a good time.  But, if you are going to start pointing fingers I'm going to point 10 right back at all of YOU. 

 

Tom, Tom, Tom...where to start, where to start....you are entitled to your opinion about me and what I say/write as I am about you.  Yet I think I'll find some maturity and keep it out of the public view - that's just me.  

 

I'm not really sure about what you're attempting to do or your reasons but trying to 'call me out' about sharing anything in regards to what's discussed on the SMAC calls is beyond strange.  The discussions are to be kept confidential yes (in an effort to disincline anyone from attempting to persuade any of us in one direction or another or to give away any specific decisions), but it does not preclude us from sharing our opinions in public.  This is what I've done.  

 

Stated facts (the WDYT, the general direction of responses to it), an opinion about those responses, and my own conclusion about the string of events.

 

It was a lead-in to my own personal opinion about what should be done with the 1.6L (including necessary caveats and "founding statements" about it not being a current avenue of SMAC discussion) and a suggestion about how it could be implemented.  And there is such thing as 'off the record' but that would only need to be said if someone was sharing data explicitly not for public consumption.  What I shared was nothing more than the same opinion I expressed on our calls and a gross generalization of the instigator of my opinion.

 

I'll be the first to admit the SCCA does a poor job of communicating to the various constituents and perhaps that's where another function of advisory committees (AC) needs to be permitted: communicating to the participants in the class to which you are providing advisory services.  That's something I'll take up with the BoD the next time I visit with any of the 3 in our division.

 

To your point about the "SM super committee" and its function/purpose?  I think there was a lot of wrong information and presumptions all lumped into this overriding term.  It was my understanding (and anyone with accurate information otherwise please clarify) that shortly after the 2014 Runoffs, there was a desire to catalog exactly what the allowed head modifications actually returned in terms of performance.  I believe the idea was to test each stage/phase of head preparation (from stock, to mildly machined, to full-rules preparation) that was permitted by the rules.  There was a single vendor selected to perform these tests using provided heads and it was a "consensus agreement" between Mazda, SCCA, & NASA to do this.

 

I can't speak to the exact goals of the testing (whether in support of 'return to stock', further allowances, or somewhere in between) or even the actual output numbers as I don't recall they were ever shared with the SMAC.  Regardless, this was the "SM Supercommittee" as you have used the term and my only answer to accusations of not sharing the data is the head rules were not changed.

 

Now, there also was an additional amount of work done, by another vendor, in an effort to review the WDYT (or at least a subset of those recommendations).  This was the batch of data Ralph mentioned about not helping where the 1.6L specifically needs it but rather putting it at a higher level of output across the RPM range.

 

My last comment on the accusations of 'not doing my job' or 'blaming the class' or even 'copping out': we will gladly consider you for the SMAC in 2016 if you wish to put in your resume and the time and effort to participate.  Otherwise I'll write the same thing I have on multiple occasions prior:

If you feel there are changes needed, write the letter and try to provide data to support your request.

Letters stating "Do X." will receive the typical 'thank you for your input'.

 

I wrote my letter in support of a plate change for the NA1.8 (my SM of choice) but have pursued building a 'pro engine' for this year and hope to attend the 2016 Runoffs solely in an effort to determine whether it does require any any further adjustments.

 

Thanks for reading this far.

Brandon


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#105
Brandon

Brandon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 765 posts
  • Location:North Jersey
  • Region:NNJR
  • Car Year:1996
  • Car Number:48SM

"Underwhelming support"?

Where was this WDYT annoucement made? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

 

See this Rob (it's from our "super secret letter interface" we have access to as SMAC members /sarcasm).  It was in response to Bob Kucera's letter (#15838) and the final result of his letter was the change in weight/plate for 90-93 & 94-97 respectively.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#106
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts

 

 It looks to me as though the club is in a death spiral in some regions.

 

Precisely why I think the 1.6 competitiveness is the SCCA's problem to solve, not the 1.6 owner's.

 

 

National / majors adding another class is going to be rough sell. On a regional basis very doable.          

 

Works for me, provided there are still some regionals (divisionals?) being scheduled in the future.


2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#107
mhiggins10

mhiggins10

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 192 posts
  • Location:Houston
  • Region:SOWDIV
  • Car Year:1990

It's a little frustrating as a 1.6 owner to read this- I know it has been going roundy-round for quite some time.  The typical flow seems to be:

 

1- Dewhurst: "We need something.  Specifically, it is xyz and here is my data to back it up."

2- Others- "That may not get to the root of the problem.  Are there more people testing this?  How big is your data set?"

3- Dewhurst: "I verified on my car.  At this one track, it will work beautifully."

4- Others- "But this will cause the 1.6 to blow the doors off of everyone at my local track.  My 99 will be noncompetitive and that's not fair.  We need more data points."

5- 1.6 crowd- "Maybe we need a Porsche PDK 7-speed.  Or 9.15 rear gear.  Or a big turbocharger and megasquirt.  Clearly there's a problem and these are possible solutions."

6- Others- "that's crazy talk.  The PDK wont' solve your problems since it takes a shit after 5 laps and is expensive.  I know- I tried it.  Besides, what you need is a couple of PRO drivers in an SM prepped by Pratt and Miller, fully instrumented for all data channels running at least 10 tracks since any changes have to be based solely on the CAR, tested in REAL WORLD conditions, and not a shadetree mechanic stopwatch data set."

7- 1.6 crowd- "i'm writing a letter asking for a header."

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

I think many would appreciate the SMAC/CRB/whoever is driving the bus (which is a problem in and of itself) giving us a scope of work/RFP for what the tests need to look like- car (1.6 only? 1.6 v 1.8 v VVT?), tracks (how many and which?), prep level (top-flight unicorn car? average mid-packer?), data elements needed (lap times? HP dyno numbers? detailed traces for individual elements over multiple laps in different temperatures), etc., and what data needs to be returned.  At that point, we can decide if it's worth moving forward.

 

For what it's worth, I have a mid-pack (at best) car sitting in the garage that is available for anyone to take anywhere to test.  You break it, you buy it, but you're welcome to it.  I am also a back-pack driver with vacation time to burn- happy to go drive wherever folks want.

 

 

One other thing to consider is that most folks banging around in regional races in a 1.6 aren't here, don't post, will never go to nationals, and likely don't know thier voice is being solicited in these ongoing discussions.  Perhaps SCCA could send a letter to all SM competitors noting that there is an active discussion on 1.6 parity, instructing competitors to come here, to a dedicated thread, to discuss.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#108
Blake Thompson

Blake Thompson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Location:Racine, Wi
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:1991
  • Car Number:137

 

 

1- Dewhurst: "We need something.  Specifically, it is xyz and here is my data to back it up."

 

 

 

 

If Blowhard spent half as much time working on/racing his car as he does on MuckRakers.com...


  • Jim Drago likes this

BTDTRacing, LLC - ISellMiataParts.com

"I'm not making any money doing this, I'm purely doing it out of ego." - Paul Tracy

2011 Midwestern Council Spec Miata series champion

2015 Winner, SM - Midwestern Council: A Legen-Dairy Enduro, Co-Driver Stephanie Andersen

2015 Winner, ITA - Midwestern Council, Blackhawk Formula Festival

 

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#109
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,060 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Tom, Tom, Tom...where to start, where to start....you are entitled to your opinion about me and what I say/write as I am about you.  Yet I think I'll find some maturity and keep it out of the public view - that's just me.  
 
I'm not really sure about what you're attempting to do or your reasons but trying to 'call me out' about sharing anything in regards to what's discussed on the SMAC calls is beyond strange.  The discussions are to be kept confidential yes (in an effort to disincline anyone from attempting to persuade any of us in one direction or another or to give away any specific decisions), but it does not preclude us from sharing our opinions in public.  This is what I've done.  
 
Stated facts (the WDYT, the general direction of responses to it), an opinion about those responses, and my own conclusion about the string of events.
 
It was a lead-in to my own personal opinion about what should be done with the 1.6L (including necessary caveats and "founding statements" about it not being a current avenue of SMAC discussion) and a suggestion about how it could be implemented.  And there is such thing as 'off the record' but that would only need to be said if someone was sharing data explicitly not for public consumption.  What I shared was nothing more than the same opinion I expressed on our calls and a gross generalization of the instigator of my opinion.

 
You missed my point.  As a member of the SMAC, your opinion is ALWAYS reflective of some part of the SMAC.  AT a minimum it is the opinion of one member: YOU.  Saying "this is my personal opinion, not the opinion of the SMAC" doesn't change that fact.  Frankly, I think it does more harm than good for the SMAC members to come out with opinions that differ from that of the SMAC consensus.  the SMAC, CRB, BOD, and Spec Miata Working Group need to communicate with the SM community more regularly and transparently....but, that needs to be done as one voice, not by individual members stating things that may or may not be the concensus of the group. 
 

I'll be the first to admit the SCCA does a poor job of communicating to the various constituents and perhaps that's where another function of advisory committees (AC) needs to be permitted: communicating to the participants in the class to which you are providing advisory services.  That's something I'll take up with the BoD the next time I visit with any of the 3 in our division.
 
To your point about the "SM super committee" and its function/purpose?  I think there was a lot of wrong information and presumptions all lumped into this overriding term.  It was my understanding (and anyone with accurate information otherwise please clarify) that shortly after the 2014 Runoffs, there was a desire to catalog exactly what the allowed head modifications actually returned in terms of performance.  I believe the idea was to test each stage/phase of head preparation (from stock, to mildly machined, to full-rules preparation) that was permitted by the rules.  There was a single vendor selected to perform these tests using provided heads and it was a "consensus agreement" between Mazda, SCCA, & NASA to do this.
 
I can't speak to the exact goals of the testing (whether in support of 'return to stock', further allowances, or somewhere in between) or even the actual output numbers as I don't recall they were ever shared with the SMAC.  Regardless, this was the "SM Supercommittee" as you have used the term and my only answer to accusations of not sharing the data is the head rules were not changed.

 

Now, there also was an additional amount of work done, by another vendor, in an effort to review the WDYT (or at least a subset of those recommendations). This was the batch of data Ralph mentioned about not helping where the 1.6L specifically needs it but rather putting it at a higher level of output across the RPM range.

 

 
From the November 14, 2014 letter (from the Spec Miata Working Group): 

The testing group is currently gathering various cylinder heads and engines. The group will flow test heads first, then run all heads on the same engine, then do the same exercise again with another engine. The testing group will dyno various cylinder heads to determine what horsepower advantages the modifications have, ranging from those egregious to the compliant, compared to one another and to stock heads. These findings will be shared with SCCA, NASA, and Mazda and in turn be shared with the entire Spec Miata community.

(bold is mine).   
 
While the goal of this data was (as you state) to determine the advantage of the STR variation, it would go a long way to comparing the performance variation between generations.  I say this somewhat sarcastically, because the amount of work involved in the testing simply due to the number of configuration variations is well beyond what I think anyone had the understanding of, or the intent to fund:

 

By my count the above is 3-4-ish heads per engine variant, 4 engine variants (1.6, 1.8, 99, vvt), 2 each engines per variant.  That's 24-32 engine/head test configurations, all of which need to be flow tested and dyno'd enough times to have confidence in the variations and account for measurement noise (systematic and random).  That's a fair amount of money just in hardware, and we haven't started adding up labor. 

 

There are a whole host of other issues associated with the "plan"; but even if incomplete, it would have gone some part of the way to estabilishing a basline set of comparisons between generations with and without STR mods of varying degrees---all on the same dyno, all by the same shop.

There was a LOT of discussion at the time that the WDYT came out, on this forum.  The only concensus that we ever really reached was that asking us to choose between a set of mods with ZERO data to support *ANY* of them, is pointless.  I suppose we all could have written in and asked for data.  Now, its come out that some data was obtained that didn't support ANY of these as a good choice (one that helps in the region that the 1.6 is generally thought to need it (more Tq below the dreaded 5500 rpm). 
 
Was that data shared with the community?  What the fact that they were tested (or even going to be tested) shared with the community? 
 

My last comment on the accusations of 'not doing my job' or 'blaming the class' or even 'copping out': we will gladly consider you for the SMAC in 2016 if you wish to put in your resume and the time and effort to participate.  Otherwise I'll write the same thing I have on multiple occasions prior:
If you feel there are changes needed, write the letter and try to provide data to support your request.
Letters stating "Do X." will receive the typical 'thank you for your input'.
 

I am not qualified to do either one.  As has been documented, this is my first year racing...and its everything I can do to remember the right flag colors.  Someday maybe I will consider participating....but, now would be grosly premature.  I would seriously question the judgement of anyone who WANTED me in one of those positions, at this time.  A man's got to know his limitations.

 

I'm not an internal combustion engine engineer.  I know about this much: suck, squeeze, bang, blow.  Ok, I know a little more than that.  But, I do not know the subtlies associated with eeking out 2-4 ft-lbs on a 1.6L miata engine with a black-magic and voodoo based ECU.  I have zero spare parts in my possession, and I don't own a dyno.  So, I have precious little resource at my disposal by which to gather data and make a reasoned decision about how to improve the car.  Plus, I'm, at least, 15 years behind the likes of Scheiffler and Bennet.  Besides, as a group our focus is to COMPLY with the rules, not break them. So, how are we going to gather race data while mod'ing a car to explicitly be non-compliant? 

 

Whether you or I or anyone else likes it, the fact is that the SMAC *is* the defacto leadership of the class.  Sometimes Mueller goes a slightly different way, but he's still part of the larger collective...and I think he participates in the SMAC conference calls (last I heard).  So, the fact is that group *IS* the leadership.  As such, I expect that LEADERSHIP to do just that: lead.  That means direct the solution to the problem. 

 

That does not mean sit back and say, WDYT...and then fold because no one responded with a letter. 

 

To be clear, I don't know if changes are needed.  I don't have the data---and I don't have the means to obtain the data (but, the Spec Miata working Group WAS on the path to collect that data..or a first approximation of it).   I'm not a good enough driver on my own to say that my results are in any way affected by any performance differential---in fact I'm sure they are NOT.  Second (assuming a change is warranted), I don't know what changes would have the necessary impact.  Apparently, neither does anybody else. 


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#110
Mark Drennan

Mark Drennan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Location:San Jose, CA
  • Region:NorCal
  • Car Year:1994
  • Car Number:10

After this weekend I changed my mind, the 25lb weight drop helped but still isn't enough. Definitely worth looking into options (again) to bring it up to speed.

 

How can you say this Matt?  I'm not saying a compliant 1.6 doesn't need help but your results from this weekend certainly don't support your statement.  You had nose-to-tail battles in all three races this weekend with a '94 and a '99. 

 

Saturday - you finished barely ahead of a 1.8 (.8 second gap) and a 99 (1.4 second gap) and had fast lap on both of them by .2 and .3, respectively.

Sunday 1 - you finished .3 behind the 1.8 and .1 ahead of the 99.  Fast laps were within .3

Sunday 2 - again, nose-to-tail all race long with the 1.8 and fast lap within .1

 

Maybe you think you're a better driver than those guys and it shouldn't be close...which is why the/your 1.6 needs more help?


Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#111
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

If Blowhard spent half as much time working on/racing his car as he does on MuckRakers.com...

If you have something stuck in your craw, be a man and let's talk next time at the track.

 

How'd you make out the last time you were in a race that Blowhard's car was in?  If you require clarification, it was the last Midwestern Council race at the Farm.  Ay least other racers that suffered the same as you that day were complementary in saying the guy does know how to work/set up car. 
 


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#112
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

Back to the 6 speed manual transmission potentially in the 1.6. Has anyone used the transmission on track with modifications beyond OEM shifters? Jim Drago and Ron Allan, were your experience with OEM shifter levers?

 

Anyone else with Miata 6 speed manual transmission experience, good bad or otherwise? 


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#113
davew

davew

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Location:Beloit, Wi
  • Region:Chicago
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:72

Let me state a few facts:

 

We have been talking about this for years. And probably will continue for many more

Some one has to be the best and someone has to be the worst. 100% equality will never happen.

True scientific testing will take a lot of time and money.

Conjecture, opinions and posibilities won't get us anywhere

Competition adjustments are made comparing 100% cars to 100% cars with 100% drivers

For accurate comparisons, you need to compare 100% cars to 100% cars

There is no current 100% NA car, that I know of.

The SMAC is 100% volunteer. They spend a lot of time and effort with the intent of making the class better

The SMAC has no budget. SCCA does NOT give the SMAC money for testing. The only thing they can do is ask WDYT

Gaining 10 hp (easily done by removing a restrictor on a 1.8) is about 0.3 seconds of lap time. Increasing the engine output by a couple will NOT make you 3 seconds faster.

Whatever changes are made, they must help at all tracks and all conditions. Example, if the turn signal lense removal helps on hot days, but not on cold days, it is not the stand alone answer.

In Spec Miata, the driver is more important than the car

Even with the 25 pound decrease, I have not seen a stampede of 1.6 cars showing up. How do we know if it helped.

Track testing is more important than dyno testing. Back in my Trans Am days, we had a carb that always made 10 extra hp on the dyno. But it drove like crap, so we never raced it.

Being on a rules committee is a PITA.

 

Carry on

dave


Dave Wheeler
Advanced Autosports, the nations most complete Spec Miata shop
Author, Spec Miata Constructors Guide, version 1 and 2.0

Building Championship winning cars since 1995

4 time Central Division Spec Miata Champion car builder 2012-2013-2014-2017

Back to Back June Sprints Spec Miata 1-2 finishes 2016 and 2017

5 time June Sprints winner in Mazda's

6 Time Northern Conference Champion Car Builder

2014 SCCA Majors National point Champion car builder

2014 SCCA Runoffs winner, T4 (Bender)

2014 Central Division Champion, ITS (Wheeler)

2013 Thunderhill 25 hour winning crew chief

2007 June Sprints winner, (GT1, Mohrhauser)

Over 200 race wins and counting.
www.advanced-autosports.com
dave@advanced-autosports.com
608-313-1230

Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#114
Blake Thompson

Blake Thompson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Location:Racine, Wi
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:1991
  • Car Number:137

 

Even with the 25 pound decrease

 

 

with your cage and no extras and being 209 lbs I'm a long ass way from min weight.


BTDTRacing, LLC - ISellMiataParts.com

"I'm not making any money doing this, I'm purely doing it out of ego." - Paul Tracy

2011 Midwestern Council Spec Miata series champion

2015 Winner, SM - Midwestern Council: A Legen-Dairy Enduro, Co-Driver Stephanie Andersen

2015 Winner, ITA - Midwestern Council, Blackhawk Formula Festival

 

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#115
Blake Thompson

Blake Thompson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Location:Racine, Wi
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:1991
  • Car Number:137

 

 

Anyone else with Miata 6 speed manual transmission experience, good bad or otherwise? 

 

same final drive as the 5 speed and a nearly useless 1st gear.  But my stock 01LS was a rowboat at RA and quicker.  I don't think the experience would be as good at BFR.  Syncros made of macaroni noodles.


BTDTRacing, LLC - ISellMiataParts.com

"I'm not making any money doing this, I'm purely doing it out of ego." - Paul Tracy

2011 Midwestern Council Spec Miata series champion

2015 Winner, SM - Midwestern Council: A Legen-Dairy Enduro, Co-Driver Stephanie Andersen

2015 Winner, ITA - Midwestern Council, Blackhawk Formula Festival

 

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#116
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts

I second Blake. The 25 lb weight reduction is a joke for quite a few of us. There is no way I can get down to 2275.

 

 

There is no current 100% NA car, that I know of.

 

I am soooo f'ing sick of reading this. Please tell us all, once and for all, what is being left on the table by all the 1.6 SMs in the free world. After we've done everything allowed by the GCR what is it we're all missing to be 100%?

 

Are you saying that even the Advanced Autosport NA cars are only built to, what, 85%, 90%?


2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#117
Brandon

Brandon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 765 posts
  • Location:North Jersey
  • Region:NNJR
  • Car Year:1996
  • Car Number:48SM

 
You missed my point.  As a member of the SMAC, your opinion is ALWAYS reflective of some part of the SMAC.  AT a minimum it is the opinion of one member: YOU.  Saying "this is my personal opinion, not the opinion of the SMAC" doesn't change that fact.  Frankly, I think it does more harm than good for the SMAC members to come out with opinions that differ from that of the SMAC consensus.  the SMAC, CRB, BOD, and Spec Miata Working Group need to communicate with the SM community more regularly and transparently....but, that needs to be done as one voice, not by individual members stating things that may or may not be the concensus of the group. 
 

 

 
From the November 14, 2014 letter (from the Spec Miata Working Group): 

(bold is mine).   
 
While the goal of this data was (as you state) to determine the advantage of the STR variation, it would go a long way to comparing the performance variation between generations.  I say this somewhat sarcastically, because the amount of work involved in the testing simply due to the number of configuration variations is well beyond what I think anyone had the understanding of, or the intent to fund:

 

By my count the above is 3-4-ish heads per engine variant, 4 engine variants (1.6, 1.8, 99, vvt), 2 each engines per variant.  That's 24-32 engine/head test configurations, all of which need to be flow tested and dyno'd enough times to have confidence in the variations and account for measurement noise (systematic and random).  That's a fair amount of money just in hardware, and we haven't started adding up labor. 

 

There are a whole host of other issues associated with the "plan"; but even if incomplete, it would have gone some part of the way to estabilishing a basline set of comparisons between generations with and without STR mods of varying degrees---all on the same dyno, all by the same shop.

There was a LOT of discussion at the time that the WDYT came out, on this forum.  The only concensus that we ever really reached was that asking us to choose between a set of mods with ZERO data to support *ANY* of them, is pointless.  I suppose we all could have written in and asked for data.  Now, its come out that some data was obtained that didn't support ANY of these as a good choice (one that helps in the region that the 1.6 is generally thought to need it (more Tq below the dreaded 5500 rpm). 
 
Was that data shared with the community?  What the fact that they were tested (or even going to be tested) shared with the community? 
 

I am not qualified to do either one.  As has been documented, this is my first year racing...and its everything I can do to remember the right flag colors.  Someday maybe I will consider participating....but, now would be grosly premature.  I would seriously question the judgement of anyone who WANTED me in one of those positions, at this time.  A man's got to know his limitations.

 

I'm not an internal combustion engine engineer.  I know about this much: suck, squeeze, bang, blow.  Ok, I know a little more than that.  But, I do not know the subtlies associated with eeking out 2-4 ft-lbs on a 1.6L miata engine with a black-magic and voodoo based ECU.  I have zero spare parts in my possession, and I don't own a dyno.  So, I have precious little resource at my disposal by which to gather data and make a reasoned decision about how to improve the car.  Plus, I'm, at least, 15 years behind the likes of Scheiffler and Bennet.  Besides, as a group our focus is to COMPLY with the rules, not break them. So, how are we going to gather race data while mod'ing a car to explicitly be non-compliant? 

 

Whether you or I or anyone else likes it, the fact is that the SMAC *is* the defacto leadership of the class.  Sometimes Mueller goes a slightly different way, but he's still part of the larger collective...and I think he participates in the SMAC conference calls (last I heard).  So, the fact is that group *IS* the leadership.  As such, I expect that LEADERSHIP to do just that: lead.  That means direct the solution to the problem. 

 

That does not mean sit back and say, WDYT...and then fold because no one responded with a letter. 

 

To be clear, I don't know if changes are needed.  I don't have the data---and I don't have the means to obtain the data (but, the Spec Miata working Group WAS on the path to collect that data..or a first approximation of it).   I'm not a good enough driver on my own to say that my results are in any way affected by any performance differential---in fact I'm sure they are NOT.  Second (assuming a change is warranted), I don't know what changes would have the necessary impact.  Apparently, neither does anybody else. 

 

Tom,

Quit parsing my words beyond what was written: my opinion is just that, my opinion and can be expressed independently of the SMAC.  Never have I stated an opinion on the SMAC call that was not also the same in public and was shared up until a decision was made on a topic.  If you wish to take my opinion as being the 'voice of the SMAC' that's not something I (or the SMAC) should be worried about and will leave it at that.

 

As I noted before, we are required to keep details of our conversations confidential (essentially internal deliberations/conversations and votes for/against agenda topics) but there was/is/has never been any requirement to keep from expressing your own opinion in public.  I think Drago would have blown himself into pieces by now if he was obligated to do such thing!   :hugegrin:

 

Regarding the working committee's missing report, your quote reminded me that yes, there is a report missing from this collection of people so I will take it as an action item (sorry, writing this at work so "business speak" trickles in...) and do what I can to get that information disseminated to the membership.

 

While I hate to say this to a 'new person' but you might find it helpful in understanding how the SCCA operates by participating in activities outside of being an entrant.  The Club operates in a completely different manner than what most people are accustomed to and because it's a club, there are all manner of processes/procedures around everything that is done within our organization.  To your point about who provides "leadership" to this particular class, it is 100% NOT the SMAC.  We are mere technical representatives addressing the feasibility of what the membership proposes to the CRB - we just happen to be focused on the Spec Miata class.  The CRB, which reports to the BoD, I would propose as being the leadership of all club racers (hence the "Club Racing Board" designation) without any specific allegiance to one class or the other.  If you want a person or group of people to operate as your 'class leaders', propose something to the CRB and see if it flies or receives any feedback on the suggestion.

 

John Meuller has been a welcome addition to the conversations and has provided some necessary input pursuant to the early 2015 issues we needed to resolve however he operates within an entirely different beast when it comes to his organization.  It's a fine point but one that needs repeating whenever rules changes & anticipated impact on participants is evaluated...

 

Again, I'll let you walk back the accusations you've levied against the entirety of the SMAC membership since what you're asking for is not how the SCCA operates nor will it ever.  If there is something you feel needs changed, our process is to write a letter to the CRB, it gets referred to the appropriate committee for review/evaluation and a recommendation of resolution/answer.  This answer is then returned to the CRB for their up/down vote on whether it is to be implemented.  

 

This is our process and barring massive member input on turning us into the Spec Miata Authoritative Committee, not beholden to any portion of the club, it's what defines the parameters we get to operate within.

 

So once more, I'm respectfully requesting anyone who feels a change is warranted in ensuring further parity of the 1.6s relative to everyone else, please write a letter with your request, provide as much data as possible, and let the process work.

 

Thanks,

Brandon


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#118
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

With 2 gal cool suite water, 1 gallon gas and no driver or race gear, 2040 pounds.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#119
Blake Thompson

Blake Thompson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 402 posts
  • Location:Racine, Wi
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:1991
  • Car Number:137

With 2 gal cool suite water, 1 gallon gas and no driver or race gear, 2040 pounds.

 

I'll have mine on the rack this week and re-check but I'm no where near that.  I think 2090 with the hubstands, and they're less than my wheels.

 

edit:  2256 on the hubstands (this includes the 215lb driver), wheels are a 70lb delta.


BTDTRacing, LLC - ISellMiataParts.com

"I'm not making any money doing this, I'm purely doing it out of ego." - Paul Tracy

2011 Midwestern Council Spec Miata series champion

2015 Winner, SM - Midwestern Council: A Legen-Dairy Enduro, Co-Driver Stephanie Andersen

2015 Winner, ITA - Midwestern Council, Blackhawk Formula Festival

 

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#120
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,060 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

I'm currently 2125 in the same configuration.  I have a Wheeler cage and a 4L fire system. 

 

I'm still aware of weight (I've added up ~25 lbs) that can be removed....that's my summer project.  My goal weight is 2075 without driver...but, I haven't identified the other 25 lbs, yet.  Any weight I remove from my midsection then becomes ballast on the passenger floor. 


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users