411 replies to this topic

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Frank,I'm not disagreeing with you that the couple of guys you are talking about in the NA cars are fast at Mid-O. But you have to take into the fact that those guys live at that track. How many other tracks do they run and how do they do there ?

I can recall a couple of them showing up at another track and not doing that well.

I haven't been to any races in 2014 so I have to ask.

When they where in front of you were you able to pass them at will ?

When you where in front were they able to pass you at will or did they only pass you if you made a mistake ?

I'm just asking because I was unable to show up there last year.

[Jim Drago]

Bennett sold his 1.6 and went to a 99 cause he believed the 1.6 could not win there against the 99 car.  I remember him posting that.

As I recall, along with a video clip of a '99 (Lamb?) gaining on him even after going well off into the dirt.

The results were no better the next year in the 99 I built. Same guy won in same purple car. I remember many of the same guys saying an "A" driver in an "A" 1.6 was beat by a "B"driver in an "A" 99. That seems pretty funny now 7 years later
The grass is always greener.. that applies to mark, myself and everyone else.

[FTodaro]

OK Frank

 

2014 majors winner

 

Voytek Burdzy

 

 

2013 National winner

 

Eric Stearns

 

2012  National winner

 

David Bednarz

 

I like numbers also 

I bet you helped out Obama when he was working up those health care numbers too, lol.

 

I do not have a problem helping the 1.6.

 

I am just pointing out that I hope it is not to the point that it is an overdog, i think what ever gets decided

 

It should be tested and done in baby steps.

 

I think the reality is that its not an easy car to drive, and contrary to some opinions, the degree of difficulty in making this car good and the degree of difficulty driving it well, is a big factor in why the results are what they are, and why people chose  another platform. 

 

Rules are not going to make drivers better or prep their cars better, but you give it enough and it will make it an overdog with the right team and driver, So i am suggesting baby steps. That is all.

 

continue on, i pass the baton.

[RazerX]

I vote to give the 1.6 a little something.  I like the weight reduction and marker light removal.  Will it be enough?  Not sure, time will tell, will it make the car an overdog.  No.  

 

This constant chatter for hard core data is impossible and reminds me of politicians who use reports as a way to delay and distract.  Everyday, every driver and every car is different, perfect comparisons don't exist.  The people on this thread are smart and already know this, which why they can and do pick any data apart they want.  Politicians also do that.  

 

As Danny stated no one(or exceedingly few) is winning in 1.6, FACT. A huge majority have moved from the 1.6 platform.  FACT.  Asking for perfect data to make an obvious needed change sounds like those government studies, the US department of Agriculture spent $200M to determine that hungry people aren't eating enough.  No really!  The 1.6 needs some love. 

 

Having more 1.6s racing, having more miata's racing, is good for the class.  It may even help with the price of the cars if 1.6s are competitive.  I do love Dave's comments about keeping the prices down.  NOTE I did not say winning the runnoffs, or all the majors but 1,6s being competitive is good for us all.  I know i would hate to see new blood going SFR, or Exx, and i am positive Mazda would not like that.  I think the discussion of if "you" would build a new 1.6 is missing the point IMHO.  I don't care what you would build.  Most of the vocal minority can afford to do top prep and purchase a new car to chase the dream.  Look at how many of the Runoffs top drivers have more than one car?  

 

But I would assert a large majority SM owners are not in that place.  I am worried about the class. I know several 1.6 drivers and there is now a perceived glass ceiling to the 1.6 this creates the perception they can't win, or even get to a podium (unless the top guys take each other out) regardless of talent.   So I think we need to restore the dream that they can progress toward the top in a 1.6.  We know the top step in SM is owned by top prep cars and usually exceptional drivers.  But for our class to be healthy we need new guys to come in on a reasonable car and have fun and believe that if they improve their skills and their car they can move up without having to buy more cars.  This is supposed to be the entry racing class. 

 

Yes I raced 1.6 for years, yes I sold it and bought a 99, yes my old 1.6 is still tearing up the track and has a great new driver, and yes I want some help for the 1.6.  I could easily count the extra $$$ i spent to go up to 99 and be bitter of the 1.6 become more competitive but honestly i would happy to have more drivers out and more beers going around afterwards.  

[Steve Scheifler]

Why is it when i post a data point that its irrelevant as to parity. Murdick's record was from 8/11/13 to 10/2/14 less that a year ago.
...

Simply because they are a single lap under ideal conditions, possibly with the draft, a tailwind, whatever. And the 1.6 is a good "qualifier" so I'm guessing it was an early race lap. Mark has talked about how he would sit on the grid with the engine off, then fire up and go for a fast lap before it fully warmed up. That track is notoriously tire critical and Mark had that mastered giving him an extra "local" advantage. Maybe that lap was near driver-perfect with the actual lap the same as the "optimal". Bottom line is that for parity purpose one lap is meaningless.

[pat slattery]

Look, if the 1.6 become a little bit of an overdog, it is so easy to fix, you add weight,to the 1.6 or you take weight or plate adjust on the 99+. 

[Jim Drago]

Mark has talked about how he would sit on the grid with the engine off, then fire up and go for a fast lap before it fully warmed up. .

That is not a 1.6 trick, I often sit amazed when waiting to go out for qualifying and most competitors are next to me on grid revving the hell out of their engines.

[Steve Scheifler]

But arguably more important to the 1.6 which draws air only from under the hood. Just part of what makes it difficult to compare them to everything else on the basis of fastest-lap in qualifying or a race. As has often been said, for 1 good lap take the 1.6, but race an NB. That's what we're really struggling to fix.

[Chris D.]

Ok, after reading all of this I feel it's my duty as a proud 1.6L owner to chime in.   Just what we need....another opinion, eh?  

 

I'll be honest, I've never knew about any heat soak issue with the 1.6.   The layout of components in the engine bay is about the same, right?   Why would heat soak be any different?  Heat soak could explain why my best qualy laps are almost always the first one.  No matter how much I jack around with tire temps and the like, it's uncanny how is always comes back to the first hot lap.

 

It seems to me that the proposal for a 25 lb drop and allowance for turn signal removal is very reasonable and the price is right.  The last thing I would want to do is drag down the 1.8 & VVT cars.....that's not good for anyone or the class.  

 

Despite my fellow Waterford Hills compatriot Mr. Novak declaring the death of the 1.6, I am going to keep running mine until it dies a natural death.   Whether it be a 1.6 only class, a vintage class.....don't care.   I built my car up myself from a bone stock donor and I love it.   Looking forward to more battles with Kristen this summer Mike!   I'll see you off in the distance like usual.   

[Mike Collins]

1.6 cars "heat soak" because they are dyno tuned with the hood open and leaned out too much...  Mark B was the best at collecting data and correctly tuning an AFM....  Most folks are doing it wrong.

[Bench Racer]

Mike, details for your version of heat soak?

[Jim Drago]

But arguably more important to the 1.6 which draws air only from under the hood. Just part of what makes it difficult to compare them to everything else on the basis of fastest-lap in qualifying or a race. As has often been said, for 1 good lap take the 1.6, but race an NB. That's what we're really struggling to fix.

You can "argue" anything I have never qualified a 1.6, but it is important in a NB car, it is easily .3-.5 at most 1:30 -1:45 tracks if you nail the outlap. It could be more in a 1.6. I don't know.

[Mike Collins]

Mike, details for your version of heat soak?

 

Poorly tuned 1.6 cars (Dyno Queens) tend to run a little lean (hot) and then ultimately end up with a little pre detention or the ECU pulls timing out....  Dyno tuning a 1.6 without a proper fan and the hood up is a mistake...

[Brandon]

Look, if the 1.6 become a little bit of an overdog, it is so easy to fix, you add weight,to the 1.6 or you take weight or plate adjust on the 99+. 

 

Hear!  HEAR!

[Mike Collins]

Using the logic of the current SMAC... Can you please make my 2015 MX5 compete on a level playing field with my 2000 or 2005 Miata?  Maybe just throw some plate and weight on the 2015 car?  The SM5 rules are just grown up SM rules...it cant be that hard

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Using the logic of the current SMAC... Can you please make my 2015 MX5 compete on a level playing field with my 2000 or 2005 Miata?  Maybe just throw some plate and weight on the 2015 car?  The SM5 rules are just grown up SM rules...it cant be that hard

Now your just being silly Mike ! lol

[LarryKing]

So which is it?

A. The 1.6 is fine as is - depends on the track

B. The 1.6 needs just a little help

C. The 1.6 needs a drivetrain transplant from an NB car

D. The 1.6 is completely obsolete and should be classified separately from real SMs

E. Any attempt to make a spec class equal means you're some kind of commie, socialitizer.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

So which is it?
A. The 1.6 is fine as is - depends on the track
B. The 1.6 needs just a little help
C. The 1.6 needs a drivetrain transplant from an NB car
D. The 1.6 is completely obsolete and should be classified separately from real SMs
E. Any attempt to make a spec class equal means you're some kind of commie, socialitizer.

I say B, lower the weight by 25lbs and remove the left front turn signal assembly and let us see how that works. Let us run it for the first couple of races and see how it plays out. Simple easy and no cost to anyone,what can it hurt ?

[deyan]

Ok, after reading all of this I feel it's my duty as a proud 1.6L owner to chime in. Just what we need....another opinion, eh?

I'll be honest, I've never knew about any heat soak issue with the 1.6. The layout of components in the engine bay is about the same, right? Why would heat soak be any different? Heat soak could explain why my best qualy laps are almost always the first one. No matter how much I jack around with tire temps and the like, it's uncanny how is always comes back to the first hot lap.

It seems to me that the proposal for a 25 lb drop and allowance for turn signal removal is very reasonable and the price is right. The last thing I would want to do is drag down the 1.8 & VVT cars.....that's not good for anyone or the class.

Despite my fellow Waterford Hills compatriot Mr. Novak declaring the death of the 1.6, I am going to keep running mine until it dies a natural death. Whether it be a 1.6 only class, a vintage class.....don't care. I built my car up myself from a bone stock donor and I love it. Looking forward to more battles with Kristen this summer Mike! I'll see you off in the distance like usual.

Newbie here, I hope to see some of you guys at Waterford this year, in my 1.6. It'll be a learning season for me, so hopefully won't be affected by all of this talk, however it is a bit discouraging for my competitive self. That said, I don't see why this couldn't be easily fixed with weight and or intake bigger restrictors.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Newbie here, I hope to see some of you guys at Waterford this year, in my 1.6. It'll be a learning season for me, so hopefully won't be affected by all of this talk, however it is a bit discouraging for my competitive self. That said, I don't see why this couldn't be easily fixed with weight and or intake bigger restrictors.

Deyan don't get discouraged over all of this. Starting in a 1.6 is the best thing for a new driver as this will make you learn total car control an car setup. All this talk that is going on is about the really really fast guys at the front of the pack at a National level.It shouldn't bother you until you get to that point. So don't get discouraged from all of us whiners and just go out and learn how to go fast and most of all just go and have some fun !!!