161 replies to this topic

[Craig Berry]

Am I missing something here??? Protests and new rules? Do we have a problem with starts besides missed shifts and overdriving T1??... And how do you legislate against those mistakes? The only time I can remember being upset about a start is when I screw it up. Maybe it's just me, but why create a problem when it's really not there?

[Johnny D]

Sorry Craig, not trying to upset anyone.

 

Nobody wants what happened in turn 1.

 

Just wondering if the rules were followed would things turned out differently.

Or some modification would improve it.

I don't see the need for the rule if the pole guy is starting when he wants.

 

J~

[Jim Drago]

Then it's tough luck for the pole sitter.  That or the start rules need a rewrite.

So how is the racing in Utopia?

[JRHille]

Can we just do what we have been doing and try not to crash? Seems pretty simple to me.

[MPR22]

Can we just do what we have been doing and try not to crash? Seems pretty simple to me.

Again the young man speaks more wisely the most.

[Ron Alan]

For the record...I suggested no specific type of start. But I did point out what works locally!  And I was hoping to understand why a "traditional/rule based" start does not work in SM at Road America?

 

Welcome back Rob...Walter, Bench, Johnny, James, John and Andrew(among others) have missed you!

[Tom Sager]

Pick your poison....

 

A slower, controlled and tightly spaced pack leads to more cars in less space entering turn 1.

A throttle on start before the green may lead to the dreaded accordion effect.

 

For sure though, running into the car in front of you when it's braking or turning or both rarely ends well.

[Jim Drago]

For the record...I suggested no specific type of start. But I did point out what works locally!  

Only been involved in three starts in your " locally" none as good as any runoffs at road anerica. Starts at Laguna where the pole sitter takes off out of turn 9 is FAR worse than rolling on throttle at road America don't you agree?

[Bench Racer]

There have been several SCCA races (NOLA, VIR, BHF) this year that didn't complete one lap with out serious car damage. A few years ago, it seems every time a Spec Miata race started at Summit Point there were crashes at the green flag. IIRC, the crash issues have been eliminated or at least greatly reduced. 

 

Mike Collins, what was the cure at Summit Point?

 

Another interesting question might be are these first lap crashes similar across all SCCA races or are these first lap crashes confined to specific Divisions/tracks?

[davew]

Personally, I can see first turn dive bombs at tracks that are notoriously hard to pass on (like Mid Ohio) but BFR has multiple "classic out braking" passing opportunities. Turns 1, 3, 3A, 6 and 7 are all passing zones. No reason to take chances on lap 1 turn 1 when you have 100 passing opportunities ahead,

 

dave

[Michael Novak]

To be clear here----- I don't think all the hits on everyone where what caused the wreck.   From two video perspectives I believe Jamey Randall hit D. Bender and he wrecked into ME and Justin Elders.   I think it was that simple...   All the other bump drafting I think wasnt the best idea, but unless he got hit by them...   which it doesn't look like it,---He got on the brakes late and hit Bender.

[AJ Roderick]

I think the T1 or GT1 start a couple of years ago is an example of a steady pace start gone wrong, seemed like lots of Corvettes destroyed and there weren't near the number of cars that an SM field has. 

 

In 2010? That wasn't caused by a steady pace. It was caused by the corvette on the front row breaking the driveshaft under acceleration and the viper behind him smashing the cars on the inside into the wall

[Ron Alan]

Only been involved in three starts in your " locally" none as good as any runoffs at road anerica. Starts at Laguna where the pole sitter takes off out of turn 9 is FAR worse than rolling on throttle at road America don't you agree?

First off, you should read what I wrote more closely. To repeat, I think track layout is a factor in what type of start works best...and that start may not be the traditional "pace car steady speed" as the GCR requests. I'm with you and others if you say "Roll throttle" start works best at RA to cut down the odds of a big kerfuffle in turn 1...and it would seem the locals in Socal also feel this way with regards to Fontana. 

 

Johnny commented that I was suggesting something specific which I was not...I simply pointed out that a rule book start in Northern CA seems to work well here and allows most to get on the front straight and at pace car speed when the green flag flies.

 

Your turn 9 comment is confusing as the pace car pulls off between turn 10 and 11(last corner). Because the last corner at Laguna is 45mph at race speed and the green flag can be 5-10 seconds later, the front row taking off out of 11 would be hugely unfair as maybe you experienced(and we would agree)? Now a restart for sure I agree with you 100%...generally as the pace car begins to go off the leader has held back and is coming down through 10...goes full throttle and forces all to go full speed through 11. Local knowledge is that the green will be waiving when the lead car comes out of 11. Fair? Not really! But it is what it is...

 

A rolling start at Laguna sucks for all those behind the 2nd row as full throttle is required to get back in position or try and catch up. And then depending on where you are in line you will have to hit the brake or you will be popping out at full throttle. 

I seem to remember the Runoffs not being the best start for some reason...dont remember why...

 

Again, I'm good with a rolling start if it is the best alternative at a specific track(safety perspective) and does not specifically give any 1 competitor an advantage

[Jim Drago]

First off, you should read what I wrote more closely. To repeat, I think track layout is a factor in what type of start works best...and that start may not be the traditional "pace car steady speed" as the GCR requests. I'm with you and others if you say "Roll throttle" start works best at RA to cut down the odds of a big kerfuffle in turn 1...and it would seem the locals in Socal also feel this way with regards to Fontana. 

 
Johnny commented that I was suggesting something specific which I was not...I simply pointed out that a rule book start in Northern CA seems to work well here and allows most to get on the front straight and at pace car speed when the green flag flies.
 
Your turn 9 comment is confusing as the pace car pulls off between turn 10 and 11(last corner). Because the last corner at Laguna is 45mph at race speed and the green flag can be 5-10 seconds later, the front row taking off out of 11 would be hugely unfair as maybe you experienced(and we would agree)? Now a restart for sure I agree with you 100%...generally as the pace car begins to go off the leader has held back and is coming down through 10...goes full throttle and forces all to go full speed through 11. Local knowledge is that the green will be waiving when the lead car comes out of 11. Fair? Not really! But it is what it is...
 
A rolling start at Laguna sucks for all those behind the 2nd row as full throttle is required to get back in position or try and catch up. And then depending on where you are in line you will have to hit the brake or you will be popping out at full throttle. 
I seem to remember the Runoffs not being the best start for some reason...dont remember why...
 
Again, I'm good with a rolling start if it is the best alternative at a specific track(safety perspective) and does not specifically give any 1 competitor an advantage

I think we are in violent agreement

[Ron Alan]

Well said...advantage Drago!

[Danny Steyn]

Now that we have all agreed that there are multiple ways to start, and that we need to stop hitting the guy in front, we should all know how to avoid a turn 1 lap 1 incident.....

Yeah Right - dream on

[Johnny D]

I don't see the start of Laguna being far worse.

According to the unwritten rule book, it says...

The guy on pole, starts the race, check.
The flagmen doesn't call off the start or black flag anyone, check.

This is done to spread out the field and start the race safely. Check.

I haven't heard anything in the unwritten rule book that says you can't start earlier.
But I haven't seen the book so..

 

J~
 

[Todd Lamb]

I'm going green when they blow the 5min whistle; give me a one lap penalty if you must.

[Johnny D]

I'm going green when they blow the 5min whistle; give me a one lap penalty if you must.

From what I hear from the unwritten rule book, I think you're good to go if there's no pace car as soon as they let you out.

Now if there's a pace car, there's a written rule about you can't pass the pace car until the pace car pulls off.

 

I'm not sure what's going on here with the pace car controlling the speed of the cars at a pace car speed and grouping the field up, but that's the rules.

Totally doesn't sound safe, IMO
J~

[Bad Rusty]

Am I missing something here??? Protests and new rules? Do we have a problem with starts besides missed shifts and overdriving T1??... And how do you legislate against those mistakes? The only time I can remember being upset about a start is when I screw it up. Maybe it's just me, but why create a problem when it's really not there?

i

I agree with Craig. I screwed up and missed a shift at the SCCA race before the runoffs. Berry and his dragon power hit me so hard it broke BOTH sides of the diff wishbones. It was my fault ( but he should have come over and said sorry/ handed me a beer. I would have preferred the beer).

Unless someone makes a mistake ( read above) or someone does something stupid ( my first weekend car destroyed at Thunderhill by a guy two rows back) everything should work out ( did you know the praying hand "emoji" lets you pick a color?? Thanks again Obama!