161 replies to this topic

[38bfast]

For me there is two safe ways to pull off a start. 1. pace car turns in and haul ass. 2. pace car turns in and go to a crawl. playing in the middle can make a mess behind you. I am one who generally likes option 2. Option 1 can get you a wave off or a black flag. I have never got a wave off using option 2. 

[Rob Burgoon]

For me there is two safe ways to pull off a start. 1. pace car turns in and haul ass. 2. pace car turns in and go to a crawl. playing in the middle can make a mess behind you. I am one who generally likes option 2. Option 1 can get you a wave off or a black flag. I have never got a wave off using option 2. 

 

I know this sounds utterly insane, but the front row could keep doing the pace the pace car set until the green comes out.

[Craig Berry]

Rob, I agree with you on waiting to see the flag....but at Rd America the pace car pulls off well before you can see the flag. When you can see the flag you are close to the flag stand and anyone with a radio and crewman calling the green May give the mid rows a huge advantage down the remainder of the very long front strait. I am trying to think of another track where the front row can not see the flag stand where the pace car pulls in....I am sure there may be another, but I cant think of one.

[38bfast]

From what I have found if you keep pace car speed the rows behind start playing games. It always seems a bit too fast and allows gaps to be formed.   If a slower than pace car speed is set cars tend to bunch up tight. 

 

A fast pace like Jim likes usually creates big gaps all the way back. But at a risk of wave off or penalty. Oscillating speed seems to always create a mess. 

[Bench Racer]

Never had the talent to be on a pole. Don't know the feeling/sensation/excitement.

 

 

Read from the GCR:

 

6.5.2. The Pace Lap

 

1. If a pace car is used, it will be positioned at the head of the pack, with emergency lights flashing. Drivers may not pass the pace car until it turns off its emergency lights and pulls off the track, and the pole car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track until the green flag. The front row drivers must be advised not to pass the pace car.

 

dave

 

 

 

[Danny Steyn]

At last weeks Majors at Summit Point, in race 1, Tyler Kicera and I were on the front row. We slowed the field down and kept the field really tight, so that there would be no gaps and no opportunistic runs, and yet most of us were surprised by how early they threw the green. I was caught napping, missed my 2-3 shift, lost several positions and after even screwing it up even more on the exit of T1 dropped to dead last!

 

So even guys that qualify on the front row can get it completely wrong.

 

In Race 2 we approached the start the same way, but were prepared for the early green and all got away cleanly.

 

There are different ways to start - some text book, some not. Some have better outcomes than others

 

This is racing, no matter what you do, someone, somewhere will screw up, including ourselves, and when that happens, there are consequences. Nothing we do will prevent sh!t from happening, but we can try and limit it.

[Bruce Andersen]

A bit late, but congrats Kyle.  And, sorry for the bad luck Mike, great qualifying though.  Also, never realized T-Brown made beer.  Have to try it out sometime.

 

The reason I wasn't there, another wrecked start at VIR a couple of weeks earlier.  I will probably be back for Mid-O.

 

Totally agree, starts are getting out of control.

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob, I agree with you on waiting to see the flag....but at Rd America the pace car pulls off well before you can see the flag. When you can see the flag you are close to the flag stand and anyone with a radio and crewman calling the green May give the mid rows a huge advantage down the remainder of the very long front strait. I am trying to think of another track where the front row can not see the flag stand where the pace car pulls in....I am sure there may be another, but I cant think of one.

 

So?  If you're in the back, go when the field goes.  The guys in the front row can see the flag, they have no excuse.

 

If people are playing games behind you, protest.

 

It's not that hard.  I have zero sympathy for Jim or anyone else that goes early trying to reach turn 1 alone.  This isn't a F1 restart.

[Jim Drago]

I know this sounds utterly insane, but the front row could keep doing the pace the pace car set until the green comes out.

You can also pull over and point the next three or four rows by if you like as well? 

 

I don't care to ruin my weekends whining and protesting others behind me who blow by at the start while I hold pace car speed all the way to the green.   I have zero interest in protesting starts etc to prove a silly point. his way works, has worked and will continue to work.  I don't see the front row leaving the next few rows in those starts.  Also not fond of the crashes that often result from the pace car speed start at Road America when the first 3-4 rows arrive at t1 all at the same time. See above Blackhawk videos.

 

 If lucky enough to start on the front row again, I will start the same way.  

[Craig Berry]

Danny, I agree with all you said. Rob, I think again I agree with you, except for the protest part... That may be more of a west coast thing, I don't know

[Ron Alan]

Watched the start of every race I've ever attended. IMO here are the main reasons(in order) starts go south(between green flag wave and turn 1)

 

1. Missed shift(never intentional but made worse if the offender tries to block the 2nd/3rd car from going by)

2. Intentional gap left by someone attempting the green flag guessing game. If they guess wrong and speed up but then hit the brakes...bad,bad,bad!

3. Front row comes through the last corner at either to quick or slow a pace then speeds up or slows down accordingly.

4. Starter waits to long and throws the latest start possible...Almost never fails when these occur that the Sea's part and you have 5 wide because all know the flag has to come out.

5. Clean start but someone in the first 10 rows(really anywhere) forgets their brake point will not be at their normal mark in the first corner!!

6. Early flag...before 1/2 the field has come threw the last corner(40+ fields...affects the back in the first corner)

 

7. Turn 1 or 2 goes from high speed to low speed(refer to #5) 

 

Other than #1 and #7...every scenario requires a conscious choice by someone. Dont think for a second I believe there is some kind of Nirvana here. It is racing and gamesmanship is part of it...understood. But as a collective group there is always the potential to do better and avoid the big situations.

 

I dont think the speed of a start is nearly as critical(to a clean start)as the gaps. Regardless of the speed...STEADY is the key. And if rolling on the throttle is the front row preference...then again STEADY is the key.

 

I can speak for our region and the one man who has started most every race he has attended. At all three tracks you can almost count on 2nd gear 4500rpm from the last corner to the green flag...it has worked every time!! His part in clean starts has been flawless!

[Ron Alan]

No doubt every track is a little different scenario from the last corner to first corner. And it would make sense there is also an ideal starting method...speaking strictly Spec Miata here. 

 

I think I've seen all the Runoffs starts at RA from the track Cameras(rolling throttle starts)...but never one that went south from a steady pace start. Can someone explain why a steady pace start(+/- 45mph) has the potential to be bad at turn one 1? Please assume there are no gaps and everyone is playing nice in line. 

 

Can the flag not be seen past the first few rows? Even in a late flag?

Is the distance between the start finish line and the turn 1 brake zone so great that the draft allows easy passes?

 

Not questioning those who say what works best...just trying to understand why having never been there!

[FTodaro]

I just want to point out that no matter what the front row does in a race where there are several cars, you will always get some guys getting to the gas sooner than others due to in car radios, some have some don't.

 

Much of what we are talking about is personal preference, and opinion about what is safe. Most of our opinions are based upon our personal experience and since we have not all had the same experience then i would expect to see different opinions.

 

So with that foundation, in my experience the keeping the steady speed of the pace car till green approach, works well to keep the pack tight, if everyone one plays by the rules. the rule being that you to keep tight to the car in front. 

But what often happens, and what Drago is afraid of is the guys behind you that lay back a little and try to get a 2 or 3 mph jump on the front row. Its a legitimate concern. the guys gaping and jumping, as Ron pointed our can cause a wreck if they time it wrong and have to check up. It also is unfair to the front row. Its likely not to be a successful protest as they did not pass anyone till the green but they have a head start.

 

The rolling on the throttle approach takes that away, IMO it also keep people from brake checking trying to get the timing right as the leaders are gradually pulling away.

 

I think its the fair as long as the front row rolls on gradually not nailing it flat to the floor then they would be the ones getting a jump. I normally tell the guys around me how i am going to start, no surprise to anyone.

 

I want to race, which means i get to run every corner in the race not just the first one.

[MPR22]

No doubt every track is a little different scenario from the last corner to first corner. And it would make sense there is also an ideal starting method...speaking strictly Spec Miata here. 

 

I think I've seen all the Runoffs starts at RA from the track Cameras(rolling throttle starts)...but never one that went south from a steady pace start. Can someone explain why a steady pace start(+/- 45mph) has the potential to be bad at turn one 1? Please assume there are no gaps and everyone is playing nice in line. 

 

Can the flag not be seen past the first few rows? Even in a late flag?

Is the distance between the start finish line and the turn 1 brake zone so great that the draft allows easy passes?

 

Not questioning those who say what works best...just trying to understand why having never been there!

I think the T1 or GT1 start a couple of years ago is an example of a steady pace start gone wrong, seemed like lots of Corvettes destroyed and there weren't near the number of cars that an SM field has. 

[Rob Burgoon]

You can also pull over and point the next three or four rows by if you like as well? 

 

 

 

Slow reaction time?  Somehow I always manage a steady pace from the pole and don't get eaten alive.

[Jim Drago]

Slow reaction time?  Somehow I always manage a steady pace from the pole and don't get eaten alive.

You may be the best there has ever been for all I know:) What I do know is no reaction time difference in the world will stop the inevitable.

Come out and test your theory at Road America and let me know how it works...
You will end getting your ass handed to you, then you will have you will be filling out witness statements and be in the courts for a few days. But you will end up "right" and get to leave with a poor finish and/or a damaged car. Not my idea of fun.

[Johnny D]

Do you think what Rob and Ron are suggesting can't be done at Blackhawk or any other track ?

J~

[Jim Drago]

Do you think what Rob and Ron are suggesting can't be done at Blackhawk or any other track ?
J~

Absolutely not, it is done often at many tracks week in and week out, but neither have ever run at Road America before( I have, a few times actually)and it will not work there.

[Rob Burgoon]

You may be the best there has ever been for all I know:) What I do know is no reaction time difference in the world will stop the inevitable.

Come out and test your theory at Road America and let me know how it works...
You will end getting your ass handed to you, then you will have you will be filling out witness statements and be in the courts for a few days. But you will end up "right" and get to leave with a poor finish and/or a damaged car. Not my idea of fun.

 

Then it's tough luck for the pole sitter.  That or the start rules need a rewrite.

[Johnny D]

That's what I was thinking.

Start right.

Black flag

Or change the rule.

But I just start sh!t around here so...

J~