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Auto Club Speedway May 16-17

Teen Mazda Challenge NASA Socal

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#121
ECOBRAP

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You do realize Matt that you have started every race of your short career bumper to bumper? Until now you have never said anything correct? My guess is Cal Speedway(and a few others in the country) are unique and call for a little mod from what is traditional.

Bottom line is there are missed shifts in most every race. At some point all will either be that guy, be screwed by that guy, or take advantage of that guy! Every race people complain about the guys who leave to big a gap to try and game the start or are just clueless. You are not going to be happy if that guy in front of you forces you to start in the 4th row when you were supposed to be in the 3rd!

SCCA has changed/clarified the start rules(at least in SFR) with specifics. They had a meeting with all drivers at our last regional to make sure all understood. I think the jest of it was do not leave big gaps or be out of line!

No system is perfect but what has always worked will continue to work. And at those tracks were drafting can cause a lot of cars in one spot at a start the racers have figured out what works best...and continue to do it despite the rules.

 

No I have not argued it before, because like everyone else I am caught up in how much fun it is. After what happened at ACS, I am not the type of person that says "those were unusual circumstances, it won't happen again". Lightning does strike twice, and when it does, it hits harder than it did the first time. What happened there could very much happen anywhere else... imagine if that happened at Sonoma? Literally nowhere to go and we would have 20 cars plow into each other because no one can see anything and as a result no one lifts.

 

Like I said, I am not dead set on any changes, but just figured it should be discussed.

 

In my opinion SM has had way too much contact recently, myself included, and I hope we don't start viewing it as a part of the class, and instead find ways to mitigate it. There is nothing better than Spec Miata racing with good clean battles and everyone coming home with themselves and their cars in one piece.


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#122
Rob Burgoon

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I'm happy with the status quo.  If we were really worried about making the starts safer for the cars, we'd have single file starts and let the pole car start the race.  Don't think I want single file though. 


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#123
Ron Alan

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Sorry Matt...couldn't disagree with you more. SCCA and NASA have been essentially starting the same way in all groups for a long time. As I said before nothing is perfect...but you can't change things to account for the unexpected. I've seen dozens of missed shifts and the parting of the seas. Probably 50% of the time contact occurs...10% of the time it is significant. That is the start...then we have the first corner and the bonehead shit that can happen there...you see where I'm going.

SM has had no more contact recently than anytime before....always contact somewhere in the field! Comes and goes whether you are around it or not.
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#124
ECOBRAP

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Like I said I'm not too bothered about it... or maybe my new paint job is getting to my head?  :bigsquaregrin:

 

Either way I'll keep my lightning analogy to myself and let others learn it on their own :)


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#125
James York

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Sorry Matt...couldn't disagree with you more. SCCA and NASA have been essentially starting the same way in all groups for a long time. As I said before nothing is perfect...but you can't change things to account for the unexpected. I've seen dozens of missed shifts and the parting of the seas. Probably 50% of the time contact occurs...10% of the time it is significant. That is the start...then we have the first corner and the bonehead shit that can happen there...you see where I'm going.

SM has had no more contact recently than anytime before....always contact somewhere in the field! Comes and goes whether you are around it or not.

 

I have no dog in this hunt, and maybe its an out west thing, but I think accepting the 1/2 the time you are going to have contact and 1 out of 10 starts a car is going to be written off, I find that very low expectations of the drivers.

 

I would think "improvement" would always be a good thing.


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#126
Rob Burgoon

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I have no dog in this hunt, and maybe its an out west thing, but I think accepting the 1/2 the time you are going to have contact and 1 out of 10 starts a car is going to be written off, I find that very low expectations of the drivers.

 

I would think "improvement" would always be a good thing.

 

 

I dunno, in a 50 car race those numbers sound reasonable.  He said significant, not written off.  Ron might be saying one car of of 50 has a corner destroyed 10% of the time, not a loss of a whole car.


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#127
Jamz14

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My interpretation of what Ron said was that when someone misses a shift those percentages start to happen. Not that those percentages happen every race and for whatever reasons. But I am crazy and misunderstand people all the time.


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#128
Jim Drago

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#129
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I'm sure out of all people, James could put a few words together for the teens to be safe, etc, etc. :prayer:  :crying2: :frustrated:  :soapbox:

J~

:) Of Course! But with a couple of exceptions, few TMC drivers post and put forth their opinions here (and that is a good thing, especially with that very subject addressed in the CCRs). Most if not all just want to follow whatever rules and directions that NASA sets for them and go race. So with knowing that only a small fraction of the west coast TMC drivers will see this, here goes:

 

1. All of the TMC drivers did a good job at ACS dealing with a very hectic race weekend. Keep up the good work.

2. Look to your parents and the great people at NASA for guidance this season should you have concerns. These people have your best interest in mind, but don't expect them to never make a mistake. Just know that those mistakes are made thinking that they are doing the right thing for you whether from a safety aspect, race craft aspect, or a social aspect.

3. Continue to follow the stewards instructions for starts. DO NOT IGNORE THEM. Sidebar: ALL of the TMC drivers I saw on Saturday followed the stewards instructions to the letter (that doesn't mean that mistakes weren't made, just that they did not intentional violate any instruction). It is being said that following to the letter was part of the problem. But with people threatening to protest and DQ for any jumped or throttle up start, what did people expect TMC drivers that are known for following rules to a fault were going to do?

4. All will be back to normal soon. Continue to go with the flow. Let the officials experiment with start procedures. I predict we will be back to the way we have always started, but be open to trying new things. But when trying new things, do so like when you are coming up to speed at a brand new track. Slowly, methodically building speed as you approach the edge.

5. Let NASA and the TMC management work through the season. Instead of getting wrapped up in their process, start concentrating on the next race at Buttonwillow. Review onboard videos, prep your cars, making sure they are setup right for this particular race, your alignments are good, your running gear is free. Have spare hubs ready. You might consider dust caps for your hubs for this weekend.

6. Spend the time you might be spending on getting involved with these procedural issues on thinking about your business plans and videos should you win this thing and are in front of the shootout panel. Don't win the TMC only to drop the ball at the big show. Remember too that people are looking at you now, not just at the shootout. Opinions will begin to form as the people in the background are observing you. They will emerge from the background at the appropriate time. Don't be surprised to discover that they have been following you all season. Dress and act for the title and position you want to have, not the one you currently occupy.

7. Dump the go-kart like bumper to bumper pushing starts. Yes this being a single make class lends itself to some advantages of being bumper to bumper and helping each other in your file move past the other file of cars. However, unlike karting, not all the drivers in regional and national races have that same karting experience as most of the TMC drivers do and are not prepared to do this with you.

8. This is going to be a particular challenging season for you guys. Attrition and consistency will be as important as race wins in my opinion. Demonstrate that you can concentrate on a championship season as well as individual race wins.

9. Be safe with your fellow drivers. ALL FELLOW DRIVERS. Because at the the end of the day, you are not a TMC driver. You are just a driver like any other. What you do now may impact the rest of your career as a DRIVER.

10. Hold to the codes of conduct of NASA and TMC. Do not forget at any time that you are a representative of Mazda, NASA, TMC, Toyo, ETC. And sports car racing in general.

11. Always take the high road no matter how difficult it may be. The low road leaves you vulnerable to finger pointing and attacks. Winning at all cost is the low road. And please trust me on this. The people that will have influence on your dreams and aspirations are able to discern between character and race wins. And have no doubt about which of these two characteristics they will choose if they are forced to choose between them. Instead win with character and don't put them in a position to make that choice.

12. Remember that you are a guest in the regions that you travel to outside your region of record.

 

And in closing; I have seen only drivers that understand these things already. I am deeply impressed with the level of understanding that all the TMC drivers have of these concepts. I would drive next to everyone of these drivers if only I was able to keep up with them. I am humbled by their class and respect, and honored to know each and every one of them.


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#130
Rob Burgoon

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My interpretation of what Ron said was that when someone misses a shift those percentages start to happen. Not that those percentages happen every race and for whatever reasons. But I am crazy and misunderstand people all the time.

 

 

If you have 50 cars, I figure at least one of them will usually miss a shift on the start.


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#131
john mueller

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If you have 50 cars, I figure at least one of them will usually miss a shift on the start.

 

Ah, that would be ME Rob...  LOL.


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#132
Jamz14

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I haven't seen a 50 car start in socal. I don't think I have seen a 50 car start at MRLS. But I get your point and agree that it may be probable on a 30 car start. Typically we have probably a 7-10 car start in socal with few miss shifts on the start. In my personal opinion we are addressing a problem that is the exception and not the norm.

 

There was about 4000 HP on the ACS grid. 70,000 pounds of metal and flesh. 210,000 rpms. All within feet of each other, and all controlled by humans. There will be mistakes, there will be bent metal. I pray to the gods that the flesh remains intact.


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#133
Jamz14

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Oh and I forgot one thing for the TMC drivers. Enjoy this weekend. Watch the Grand Prix and remember what you love about racing!!!


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#134
Ron Alan

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I have no dog in this hunt, and maybe its an out west thing, but I think accepting the 1/2 the time you are going to have contact and 1 out of 10 starts a car is going to be written off, I find that very low expectations of the drivers.

 

I would think "improvement" would always be a good thing.

I agree with you James...always preaching improvement! Rob and Jamz got what i was trying to say...which accurate or not(significant damage to a car in 1/20 starts when a miss shift occurs)was just trying to illustrate that shit happens but for the most part a traditional start works. And as I've said before, I defer to those who have been at the few tracks in the country where a traditional by the book start is not so good.

 

And so that my comment in reference to what Matt(topgear) said is not misunderstood...I would love to see every race finish with cars at speed, no contact, and lots of beers and high 5's all the way around! And anything I say to my drivers always focuses on this.  But that Utopia in SM is rare...strictly due to physics, experience and human nature. In fact i would go as far to say every racer at the beginning of the race has the same goal in mind! But when that green flag flies all bets are off...that split second good decision making switch just breaks in some :(

 

Great clean racing comes and goes...but the goal to have it should never be absent!


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#135
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Being someone mentioned the green flag deal at the last Farm Majors race, from my (slightly mature/old) memory, that is not the norm at the Farm, Majors, National or Regional.  Dave Wheeler????


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#136
Johnny D

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Can we all agree Joe (dad) Jordan knows what he's talking about ?

 

Can he consult, just his :twocents:, on the starts to James and John?

 

J~


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#137
James York

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....., there will be bent metal. I pray to the gods that the flesh remains intact........

 

I will let you guys sort out what works and is best for you, but this statement, to me, appears acceptance of mediocrity.  I am glad in the areas I race, it seems a different standard is the norm.

 

At any rate, I hope the second sentence holds for everyone in our racing family.


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#138
Joe (dad) Jordan

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Johnny,  Thanks for the vote of confidence,  I have talked with John Mueller and given my thoughts.  I really just think its a Cal Speedway thing and I also warn using the bumper to bumper (karter) push start because that leads to no ability to ract and causes bigger pile ups.

 

 

 

Can we all agree Joe (dad) Jordan knows what he's talking about ?

 

Can he consult, just his :twocents:, on the starts to James and John?

 

J~


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#139
ECOBRAP

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My vid from Saturday.

 


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#140
jeremybarnes

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I don't often post on the site, but thought I'd chime in now that I've been able to download my footage of the start incident on Sunday.  Take a look and make your own mind up about what happened...

 

http://youtu.be/OvHj2Ecb9vI

 

Best to all, see you at the track again soon.  Had a blast all weekend with the TMC drivers, and was surprised how strong my little home-built SM with a never-touched 1.6 crate motor ran on the banks.  Still lacking in torque off the corners and at the start, but ran strong around the oval.

 

Anyway, the issue wasn't the close-packed start or the number of cars or the age/experience of the drivers, the issue (in my opinion) was the speed of the start.  We were asking for trouble, and i think you'll see in the video what happened as a result of the slow start.






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