146 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Road America and AAA Cal Speedway are similar at the start.....except call speedway you have 1 mile of straightaway before the first corner (from Nascar S/F all the way through Nascar 1 and 2 Halfway down the back straight....  Almost a full mile!   It's nuts.  At Cal speedway their should never be a 2nd gear start!  The most shifts missed are the 2-3 so eliminate that get a fast start from 3rd gear and don't worry about a fair start ...........worry about preserving cars......   It's pretty sad that 4-5 cars only made it 100 ft past start finish!

 

Agreed.  The pace car setting a 3rd gear pace would be good.

[True North]

Well said James...

[pmillion]

Not whining at all.  Matt's damage was minimal.   No one got the point.   Matt was in the front row passing the P2 car on the outside when he was hit by the car behind him.  This caused the chain reaction.   The P6 car went sideways and up the track.  The start was painfully slow and was a factor.   A faster start and earlier green would have helped.  Hope that helps John M.  Come get some heat at the front of pack, we know you have the horse power  

[Rob Burgoon]

 

Also, John I think a lot of us would appreciate a detailed description of what happened in tech on Sunday. What I heard is that Filippi failed the whistle by a significant margin, but also that the tech guys had no idea what they were doing, and Filippi was cleared just because of that? Just saying what I have heard, and would like some clarification as to what really happened, and if further investigation was taken or is being taken. If not, why not.

 

Best,

Matt

 

It sounded like TMC was going to give Filippi his points regardless of whether NASA DQ'd him, so that might have played into it.  At the very least I suspect Filippi will be facing another whistler check after qualifying at the next TMC event.

[MPR22]

I'm not sure how to reply.  Either "oh I'm sorry that happened" or "shut up".    I got this from one of your fellow teens driving way above their head..  Wanna trade?  Mine is noting compared to others so I'm not complaining and you sure as hell should not be either.

 

If you can't take the heat then get out boy...

 

John,

 

That type of rhetoric from a series director is not acceptable in my opinion.  You aren't helping the situation by telling a guy he should quit crying because of body contact, especially body contact on a start that from this thread appeared to tear up a lot of cars.  Don't know if this particular contact caused the ensuing carnage but nobody should be told to be quiet when they were clearly hit from behind.   Let him and Rob hash it out and if he wants to do it on this forum then that is his choice.  Others can chime in and criticize him for his use of the forum, but you as the series director should keep your opinions to your self or have a private conversation with the driver.  I understand you are also racing and feel you should be able to get in the middle of these things like the rest of us arm chair quarterbacks but you have a higher duty and creating additional drama is not it. I myself just wouldn't take the job as I am too opinionated to keep my trap shut.  

 

MPR22

[john mueller]

John,

 

That type of rhetoric from a series director is not acceptable in my opinion.  You aren't helping the situation by telling a guy he should quit crying because of body contact, especially body contact on a start that from this thread appeared to tear up a lot of cars.  Don't know if this particular contact caused the ensuing carnage but nobody should be told to be quiet when they were clearly hit from behind.   Let him and Rob hash it out and if he wants to do it on this forum then that is his choice.  Others can chime in and criticize him for his use of the forum, but you as the series director should keep your opinions to your self or have a private conversation with the driver.  I understand you are also racing and feel you should be able to get in the middle of these things like the rest of us arm chair quarterbacks but you have a higher duty and creating additional drama is not it. I myself just wouldn't take the job as I am too opinionated to keep my trap shut.  

 

MPR22

 

I have to agree...  When I saw the post form PMillion I was pretty angry that he was worried over that damage when folks got to go for a ride in an ambulance and potentally write their car(s) off as totaled.  I know PMillion's family and was disappointed with the post and overreacted.

 

The reality is despite the volume of contact reports, once the field spread out the racing was awesome.

[Tom Hampton]

I have to agree...  When I saw the post form PMillion I was pretty angry that he was worried over that damage when folks got to go for a ride in an ambulance and potentally write their car(s) off as totaled.  I know PMillion's family and was disappointed with the post and overreacted.

 

The reality is despite the volume of contact reports, once the field spread out the racing was awesome.

 

After many heated communications in various settings, my process is now:

 

1.  Take 3 breaths, walk away from the computer,

2.  Type the reply in notepad, wait 24 hours, read it again.

3.  Realize reply was "in anger" and disproportionate to the crime. 

4.  Delete post and congratulate myself for showing such great restraint.

[Justin Casey]

I got whistled.  They seemed to be using the whistler correctly.  The googling wasn't for instructions on the whistler, it was for looking up bore and stroke and compression ratio numbers.

 

My car whistled legal.  A 99 whistled at 10.0:1.  There was some confusion about how much overbore pistons matter, so I suggested that tech adjust the displacement setting down until the car whistled 9.5 and write down that displacement, then figure out the math later.

 

I did some napkin math, and it looks like 10 over pistons add about 0.15 ci each so 0.6 cubic inches to the total displacement?  Sound right?

 

I rarely ever post on here but after last weekend, I feel the need to voice my opinion. 

 

 A '99 car whistled at 10.0:1 compression ratio? Max compression allowed for a '99-'00 car is 9.5:1 based off of the NASA rule book. Right then and there that car should be DQ'd or severely penalized. If this is true, why was this just "swept underneath the table"? 

 

Unless there is something I am missing, NASA has a rule book. They should be enforcing it and in doing so, treating everyone/every car the same. 

 

In addition to what topgear said, I too would like some clarification on what happened in tech on Sunday. 

 

Despite all this hearsay, overall this track was a great experience for my first time here. Definitely the most bump drafting I have ever done in SM. 

Qualified 15th on Saturday, finished 3rd overall. Qualified 2nd for Sunday, wreck occurred, finished last. Was an unfortunate situation but I am glad that everyone walked away from it. 

 

- Justin 

[john mueller]

 Come get some heat at the front of pack, we know you have the horse power  

 

Yeah but I lack the talent.

[Ron Alan]

I to like John took the original damage post the only way that seemed logical...a complaint about body damage. That has been cleared up and John has backed off his reaction. 

 

James post is exactly the attitude the adults should have around the "kids" or better said "young men".  We are supposed to be the mature ones! Unfortunately this is not always the case. I can speak to this personally as i saw what happened when an "adult" started yelling at a "young man". The young man was wrong and accepted all responsibility and was very apologetic but the adult felt it was ok to continue to scream and yell and pout about for 24 hrs. The role reversal in this case where the young man was the adult and the adult acted like a child completely soured the young man from really wanting to race anymore if this was how it was going to be if you made a small mistake. It was a sad day for me...

 

For the sake of all the participants in TMC I do hope that someone with the "facts" lays them out. What happened and why decisions were made(right or wrong)will go along way. At this point my guess is results are final but moving forward and what all can expect in the TMC would be a good thing. Droping the Sunday race(because of the crash and 1 lap) as has been rumored would not be a good thing IMO. Teens spent money to get points this weekend...and maybe already have their weekend(they cant attend)drops figured out.

[Ron Alan]

 

 

I rarely ever post on here but after last weekend, I feel the need to voice my opinion. 

 

 A '99 car whistled at 10.0:1 compression ratio? Max compression allowed for a '99-'00 car is 9.5:1 based off of the NASA rule book. Right then and there that car should be DQ'd or severely penalized. If this is true, why was this just "swept underneath the table"? 

 

Unless there is something I am missing, NASA has a rule book. They should be enforcing it and in doing so, treating everyone/every car the same. 

 

 

 

I now hear that both TMC(Ron Cortez)and SoCal NASA have emailed the TMC participants with information about what did or didnt happen in tech as well as requesting a vote on keeping the Sunday race results. This is good and hopefully gives all a voice.

 

Justin...i had hoped someone(of authority) would chime in on your comment but since this has not happened yet i will make a comment with reference to the whistler...and if i'm wrong I will gladly be corrected.

 

Like a dyno, a whistler is designed(in this case being used)as a reference tool. Though i actually believe it is very accurate(within .1 when used correctly), it cannot be used to DQ anyone(my understanding). If a motor comes up .2+ over a max value then a CC test via water volume should/can be performed. I dont know the rules in either sanctioning bodies in how this works and who pays/does it. But i believe if the competitor refuses such a test then they can be DQ'd?

 

If NASA is going to continue to use a dyno and or whistler, they better be prepared to go to the next level of tech to verify or dispute the results. In the case of a dyno, if a 1.6 motor comes up with a 130hp number or 112ftlb torque...what are they going to check? And are they prepared to check anything? Not intended to be a rip but a serious question...are they? 

[Rob Burgoon]

I now hear that both TMC(Ron Cortez)and SoCal NASA have emailed the TMC participants with information about what did or didnt happen in tech as well as requesting a vote on keeping the Sunday race results. This is good and hopefully gives all a voice.

 

Justin...i had hoped someone(of authority) would chime in on your comment but since this has not happened yet i will make a comment with reference to the whistler...and if i'm wrong I will gladly be corrected.

 

Like a dyno, a whistler is designed(in this case being used)as a reference tool. Though i actually believe it is very accurate(within .1 when used correctly), it cannot be used to DQ anyone(my understanding). If a motor comes up .2+ over a max value then a CC test via water volume should/can be performed. I dont know the rules in either sanctioning bodies in how this works and who pays/does it. But i believe if the competitor refuses such a test then they can be DQ'd?

 

If NASA is going to continue to use a dyno and or whistler, they better be prepared to go to the next level of tech to verify or dispute the results. In the case of a dyno, if a 1.6 motor comes up with a 130hp number or 112ftlb torque...what are they going to check? And are they prepared to check anything? Not intended to be a rip but a serious question...are they? 

 

You're missing a critical factor.  NASA can do whatever NASA wants.  This isn't the HOA club of america.  If NASA wants to DQ on a whistle, they can.  If NASA wants you to fund your own teardown and inspection if you want to try to overturn a whistle, they can do that too.

 

Whether or not they would, that's another question.

 

My car's Race Engineering engine set a new purple car record on saturday, smart money says that's why I got whistled on Sunday.  (Thank you Bob!)  That's how NASA is using their dyno (so far).

[Ron Alan]

You're missing a critical factor.  NASA can do whatever NASA wants.  This isn't the HOA club of america.  If NASA wants to DQ on a whistle, they can.  If NASA wants you to fund your own teardown and inspection if you want to try to overturn a whistle, they can do that too.
 
Whether or not they would, that's another question.
 
My car's Race Engineering engine set a new purple car record on saturday, smart money says that's why I got whistled on Sunday.  (Thank you Bob!)  That's how NASA is using their dyno (so far).

Isn't Bob riding horses these days?

Not sure if your comment is to be critical or praising of NASA? Either way, yes, it can be a benevolent dictatorship! But my guess is when Mazda has their name on a program NASA will be a little more by the book oriented.

[Rob Burgoon]

Not sure if your comment is to be critical or praising of NASA? Either way, yes, it can be a benevolent dictatorship! But my guess is when Mazda has their name on a program NASA will be a little more by the book oriented.

 

I don't like HOAs much.  

 

As I understand it, TMC is its own thing.  NASA isn't keeping score for TMC, so NASA could assign DQs and TMC could ignore it if they really wanted to. 

[Rob Burgoon]

Did everyone give their memory cards to NASA or something?

[Bad Rusty]

¿dónde está el vídeo?

[Jamz14]

Rob, did the whistler want the bore size entered or the cubic displacement?

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob, did the whistler want the bore size entered or the cubic displacement?

 

Whistler doesn't do much displacement math for you, just wants you to enter total cubic inches which it divides by the number of cylinders.  I think 10 over means an extra half cubic inch which will make you read ever so slightly low if you don't account for it.

[john mueller]

Video taken from above pit-road of the start of Sundays race

 

SoCal Regional Director findings on the SM Sunday crash at start:

"This video clearly shows that the outside pole was the trigger of accident. The car clearly slows, and as other cars advance contact occurs with Burgoon (91).  If all went like normal, that car would have never been there. A white car can be seen overtaking Burgoon which means Burgoon was slowing down….  Probably because that leading red car was making him check up and/or deviate slightly right and he didn't want hit him. The white car overtaking didn't give Burgeon anywhere to go so contact occurs when forward momentum collides with slower traffic. This can happen anytime a car slows unexpectedly and the remedy would be to leave more space between cars so a driver can maneuver should this happen in the future."

 

https://youtu.be/GZSnGTMsFlE

[MPR22]

Video taken from above pit-road of the start of Sundays race

 

SoCal Regional Director findings on the SM Sunday crash at start:

"This video clearly shows that the outside pole was the trigger of accident. The car clearly slows, and as other cars advance contact occurs with Burgoon (91).  If all went like normal, that car would have never been there. A white car can be seen overtaking Burgoon which means Burgoon was slowing down….  Probably because that leading red car was making him check up and/or deviate slightly right and he didn't want hit him. The white car overtaking didn't give Burgeon anywhere to go so contact occurs when forward momentum collides with slower traffic. This can happen anytime a car slows unexpectedly and the remedy would be to leave more space between cars so a driver can maneuver should this happen in the future."

 

https://youtu.be/GZSnGTMsFlE

Outside Pole missed the 2 to 3 shift.  P4 looks like he had room to go around not sure what happened, maybe got squeezed by p2 when he was passing.  Video from Robs car would have been very helpful.  This is one of those "if we started in third gear this would have never happened" starts.  Part of racing and it sucks.  Sorry for those who got damaged.