1001 replies to this topic

[High Chair]

The only way a 1.6 will be competitive is to put them in their own class along with the other pop up headlight cars. You can add all the parts you want but unless you plan on dumping a lot of money into it and re-tuning every weekend or even during the weekend forget it; they just lose too much. All this talk about 1.6s being able to win a majors weekend if it was well prepped is non-sense; no way that is going to happen. A 1.6 can't even win a regional race in Florida anymore and hasn't for a long time. It's time to pull the plates on the 99-05 cars and let the owners of the 1.6/1.8 race for the win against cars they can compete against. 

[mhiggins10]

The only way a 1.6 will be competitive is to put them in their own class along with the other pop up headlight cars. You can add all the parts you want but unless you plan on dumping a lot of money into it and re-tuning every weekend or even during the weekend forget it; they just lose too much. All this talk about 1.6s being able to win a majors weekend if it was well prepped is non-sense; no way that is going to happen. A 1.6 can't even win a regional race in Florida anymore and hasn't for a long time. It's time to pull the plates on the 99-05 cars and let the owners of the 1.6/1.8 race for the win against cars they can compete against. 

 

Interesting take as they have certainly won races here in SOWDIV.  

[LarryKing]

 

along with the other pop up headlight cars.

 

 Which other cars are those? Fiat X19s, Pontiac Fieros, Opel GTs, Triumph TR8s?

[Jim Drago]

Jim, just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Unicorns? big foot? I haven't seen them either
All kidding aside.. I race more than most and over half the country. I have not seen any 1.6 guys REMOTELY putting in the time, money and effort as most of the guys I race against in the majors series. Not saying they don't exist, that's why I asked who they are.

The easy answer is that is bc the cars are not competitive, but simply not the truth. The cars can use some help, but the BIGGEST ISSUE holding back the 1.6 is the time, money and effort of those driving them. It is also fair to say that 95% plus of those with enough talent to win majors races are in 99 plus cars now for whatever reason. So talent is an issue as well at this point.

I have no problem with more compression, but the SMAC has will be putting something foward and willing to try it first. All of it will be way too much. If we get no improvement in finishing positions or increase 1.6 car counts, ( we likely wont) perhaps it is time to move on? Making the car so stupid fast that it forces many to go back is a bad move for the class. That is not helping those with existing cars.. That is just making the oldest POS in our class the COTY.. pretty silly IMO and not something the SMAC will do.

[Colin MacLean]

The area under the curve is what's killing the 1.6.  Bolt-ons only help where the 1.6 doesn't need it.

 

When I took my tired bone-stock 1.6 SM and prepped it to ITA rules on a major budget I was laying down PEAK hp and tq numbers similar to pro-built SM's.  If you laid my car on that spreadsheet it would look strong.

 

BUT I couldn't touch 99's coming out of the corner.  Talking 10-20 car lengths before I started to pull them back in.  

 

20 over pistons, compression bump.  Done deal.  Those pistons are cheaper than dirt.  $1000 in motor work and you're there.

[Michael Novak]

The area under the curve is what's killing the 1.6.  Bolt-ons only help where the 1.6 doesn't need it.

 

When I took my tired bone-stock 1.6 SM and prepped it to ITA rules on a major budget I was laying down PEAK hp and tq numbers similar to pro-built SM's.  If you laid my car on that spreadsheet it would look strong.

 

BUT I couldn't touch 99's coming out of the corner.  Talking 10-20 car lengths before I started to pull them back in.  

 

20 over pistons, compression bump.  Done deal.  Those pistons are cheaper than dirt.  $1000 in motor work and you're there.

I understand what is being said here, but it is also the common them-----Everyone in the 99+ crowd is spending $6000 plus per engine to get the top level of performance but much of the 1.6 crowd wants the fixes to be cheap and equal the performance of these engines for a fraction of the price. 

 

I along with many think the $6000 is alot of money for top level engines, but I also don't think the SM engine building crowd is getting rich building these engines either....  

[LarryKing]

 

Everyone in the 99+ crowd is spending $6000 plus per engine

 

And so are everyone in the 1.6 crowd.

 

 

perhaps it is time to move on?

 

Which I think is the real agenda.

[Michael Novak]

And so are everyone in the 1.6 crowd.

 

 

Which I think is the real agenda.

I asked the question of two engine builders at the runoffs and response was the same we ALMOST NEVER rebuild a 1.6.   That is my only data point. The response next was 1.6 was by far the most expensive to rebuild.

[LarryKing]

Mike, my data point is of the people who raced or still race a 1.6 in the Great Lakes, most of them have purchased one or more pro motors and/or rebuilds. Have they done so in the past year or two? Probably not because, you know, why bother.

[cam]

Interesting take as they have certainly won races here in SOWDIV.  

 

Just did a quick search on SOWDIV results for 2015: <http://www.sowdivscc...15-race-results>  Do not see a strong trend of winning 1.6s.

 

To summarize, for calendar year 2015, there were 212 SM entries for SCCA SouthWest Division that included 12 races (6 race weekends) at 4 different tracks.  1.6's were on the podium 4 times, half of those podiums were the same weekend at a very lightly attend event (4 SM entrees on Sat and 10 on Sunday).  So with 36 opportunities for podium finishes, the 1.6 was around 10% and 99+ were 90%.  And I think and impotent observation is that there was no NA 1.8 (94-97) on the podium and very light attendance as well.

 

SoW
MSR-H August 2015
Sat - 10 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM
Sun - 8 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM

 

TWS May 2015 (Majors)
Sat - 26 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 6 (great driver in very well prep'ed car), next 1.6's were P 21-23
Sun - 25 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10

 

MSR-H May 2015
Sat - 14 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 2, next 1.6 was 7th
Sun - 15 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 3, next 1.6 was 6th

 

NOLA March 2015
Sat - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10, next 1.6 was 33rd
Sun - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 35, next 1.6 was 45th

 

TWS Feb 2015
Sat - 21 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 7, next 1.6 was 13rd
Sun - 18 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 5, next 1.6 was 9th

 

MSR-Cresson Jan 2015
Sat - 4 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 3th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)
Sun - 10 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 6th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)

[Jim Drago]

Just did a quick search on SOWDIV results for 2015: <http://www.sowdivscc...15-race-results>  Do not see a strong trend of winning 1.6s.
 
To summarize, for calendar year 2015, there were 212 SM entries for SCCA SouthWest Division that included 12 races (6 race weekends) at 4 different tracks.  1.6's were on the podium 4 times, half of those podiums were the same weekend at a very lightly attend event (4 SM entrees on Sat and 10 on Sunday).  So with 36 opportunities for podium finishes, the 1.6 was around 10% and 99+ were 90%.  And I think and impotent observation is that there was no NA 1.8 (94-97) on the podium and very light attendance as well.
 
SoW
MSR-H August 2015
Sat - 10 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM
Sun - 8 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM
 
TWS May 2015 (Majors)
Sat - 26 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 6 (great driver in very well prep'ed car), next 1.6's were P 21-23
Sun - 25 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10
 
MSR-H May 2015
Sat - 14 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 2, next 1.6 was 7th
Sun - 15 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 3, next 1.6 was 6th
 
NOLA March 2015
Sat - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10, next 1.6 was 33rd
Sun - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 35, next 1.6 was 45th
 
TWS Feb 2015
Sat - 21 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 7, next 1.6 was 13rd
Sun - 18 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 5, next 1.6 was 9th
 
MSR-Cresson Jan 2015
Sat - 4 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 3th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)
Sun - 10 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 6th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)

And what would these results look like if we had "parity"?

[mhiggins10]

Just did a quick search on SOWDIV results for 2015: <http://www.sowdivscc...15-race-results>  Do not see a strong trend of winning 1.6s.

 

To summarize, for calendar year 2015, there were 212 SM entries for SCCA SouthWest Division that included 12 races (6 race weekends) at 4 different tracks.  1.6's were on the podium 4 times, half of those podiums were the same weekend at a very lightly attend event (4 SM entrees on Sat and 10 on Sunday).  So with 36 opportunities for podium finishes, the 1.6 was around 10% and 99+ were 90%.  And I think and impotent observation is that there was no NA 1.8 (94-97) on the podium and very light attendance as well.

 

SoW
MSR-H August 2015
Sat - 10 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM
Sun - 8 SM entered, no 1.6 entered in SM

 

TWS May 2015 (Majors)
Sat - 26 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 6 (great driver in very well prep'ed car), next 1.6's were P 21-23
Sun - 25 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10

 

MSR-H May 2015
Sat - 14 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 2, next 1.6 was 7th
Sun - 15 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 3, next 1.6 was 6th

 

NOLA March 2015
Sat - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 10, next 1.6 was 33rd
Sun - 46 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 35, next 1.6 was 45th

 

TWS Feb 2015
Sat - 21 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 7, next 1.6 was 13rd
Sun - 18 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 5, next 1.6 was 9th

 

MSR-Cresson Jan 2015
Sat - 4 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 3th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)
Sun - 10 SM entered, highest placing 1.6 was 1, next 1.6 was 6th (Note: 1st place SM lives at the track)

 

I could swear Caesar won a race last year at MSR, and podiumed a few times, but may be mistaken.  He also somewhat lives (lived?) at the track.

 

My point was only that they can still be somewhat competitive with the NBs, if someone puts in the time and effort and really drives them well.  No argument that the typical stuff that is rehashed over and over is also true (there are more NBs in competition, they are easier to tune/maintain/prep properly, they are arguably easier to drive, etc.)

[Bench Racer]

My thought is that during the these rounds of a specific car/spec line receiving or not receiving something the only comments accepted by the SMAC/CRB should be from the specific owner/driver of said specific car/spec line.  Ya Drago, you own one of each.

 

It would be interesting in this latest round of letters for the 1.6 how many and who the non 1.6 owners/drivers were wrote letters either way.

 

These 1.6 cheap crap comments are tiring and mostly coming from the same couple/few 99 plus owners. Altho some of the 99 plus folks do understand the 1.6 deal, thank you.

[MPR22]

I could swear Caesar won a race last year at MSR, and podiumed a few times, but may be mistaken.  He also somewhat lives (lived?) at the track.

 

My point was only that they can still be somewhat competitive with the NBs, if someone puts in the time and effort and really drives them well.  No argument that the typical stuff that is rehashed over and over is also true (there are more NBs in competition, they are easier to tune/maintain/prep properly, they are arguably easier to drive, etc.)

He won at MSR in 2014. 

 

Also have someone look up the NASA results as Gale runs almost exclusively NASA unless it is at TWS.  

The results at Cresson are indicative of a well prepped 1.6 driven by a well prepped driver also same drive won at TWS and holds the track record at TWS in a 1.6 from 2014. 

[Jim Drago]

It would be interesting in this latest round of letters for the 1.6 how many and who the non 1.6 owners/drivers were wrote letters either way.

I sent in a letter in favor of all the changes asked for BTW...


OK 1.6 crowd..
Here is the question.. Please name three or more 1.6 drivers that are putting in the required effort and have the talent to finish on majors podiums now and are being held back only because of the rules.

[LarryKing]

A major source of frustration for me is the assumption by NB owners that NA owners do not prep to the same level. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know many 1.6 racers that have put more money than they care to add-up trying to hit a moving target.

 

The real disparity is not between model years but between those who have the resources to apply an almost "pro" level effort to win and those of us that do this for a hobby. You can say the same thing about most of the '99s.

[cam]

OK 1.6 crowd..
Here is the question.. Please name three or more 1.6 drivers that are putting in the required effort and have the talent to finish on majors podiums now and are being held back only because of the rules.

 

In the Texas area, Gale Corly has a top prep 1.6 and the talent to win, he still places well if the circumstances are right.  Keith Verges is also a top talent but can not speak for his car prep, would assume it is top notch. Keith also places very high in other classes, lost track of them all but has podium finished in SRF, Viper League (or whet ever it is called), and I think it is a Radical that he has also done well in.  Most of the other "good" SM guys use to race 1.6 and have moved on to either 99+ or race their 1.6 in an other class. 

[Michael Novak]

A major source of frustration for me is the assumption by NB owners that NA owners do not prep to the same level. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know many 1.6 racers that have put more money than they care to add-up trying to hit a moving target.

 

The real disparity is not between model years but between those who have the resources to apply an almost "pro" level effort to win and those of us that do this for a hobby. You can say the same thing about most of the '99s.

I understand what you are saying but I cant think of a SINGLE 1.6 driver in the great lakes region who is prepping to a top level with a top driver who I can say if the car were better he or she would win.

[Johnny D]

A major source of frustration for me is the assumption by NB owners that NA owners do not prep to the same level. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know many 1.6 racers that have put more money than they care to add-up trying to hit a moving target.
 
The real disparity is not between model years but between those who have the resources to apply an almost "pro" level effort to win and those of us that do this for a hobby. You can say the same thing about most of the '99s.

What are you looking to achieve after said changes ?

Or your the 1.6's lobbyist ?

Can we get you in on a test session ??
And what would you do if your lap times didn't changed or did change ?

I'm a bit torn. Is it a spec class or not ? So adjust or not.
Have to factor what's best and that's moving on and leaving 1.6's behind or leave as entry level/hobby racer ??
1.6's are close but not there, but they don't want their own class.
Different turn out in East and West coast. Of Course Major and Regional.
It's just an older but still cool.

J~

[Jim Drago]

A major source of frustration for me is the assumption by NB owners that NA owners do not prep to the same level. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know many 1.6 racers that have put more money than they care to add-up trying to hit a moving target.
 
The real disparity is not between model years but between those who have the resources to apply an almost "pro" level effort to win and those of us that do this for a hobby. You can say the same thing about most of the '99s.

I agree, this is the point I am trying to make. Expecting a 1.6 to compete on this level will take far more than competition adjustments. Adjustments are only a VERY SMALL part of the equation.