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1.6 Data & Testing

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#901
Mike Collins

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Hi Mike.... I looked at your link and I guess I don't see the obvious.  What are we missing?

 

 

While it's a correct, documented reference to the process we (SMAC) are involved in (rules changes being submitted to the CRB for review/input), it is by far now more efficient with the application of technology as evidenced by 43+ pages of comments on this thread.

 

In this instance we've had nearly 3 months worth of input (member, committee, & CRB), debate, data analyzed (moving the process all the way down to "Recommended rule change") and we (SMAC) have submitted preliminary syntax on how we feel the recommended changed need to be put out in FastTrack.  

 

We are operating at "box 2" immediately under the decision diamond I feel.

 

This is all still dependent upon the CRB approving of the rule changes themselves (we are still in the dark on whether they have been approved or not) and could still be altered based upon what is issued as "approved" by the board.  They may feel something should have a wider or smaller tolerance or allowance than we initially thought or out of our 4/5/6 rule suggestions they only take 3 of them.  And even then the CRB needs approval of the Board of Directors to actually implement said rule change(s).

 

Once the CRB approves the rule change, it is sent out to Membership for input, and barring a mutinous letter-writing campaign, will more than likely be approved by the BoD in November/December as a 2016 rule.

 

Does that answer your question Mike?

The part when it goes out for Member input and a few wise guys get a few smart people to write letters not recommending the change....  I really doubt the SMAC got a lot of letters asking for the change from people who race 1.6 cars, certainly not enough to move any needle by any measure....


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#902
Cnj

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The part when it goes out for Member input and a few wise guys get a few smart people to write letters not recommending the change.... I really doubt the SMAC got a lot of letters asking for the change from people who race 1.6 cars, certainly not enough to move any needle by any measure....

Indeed - which (I believe) is how the NA to NB suspension upgrade got scuttled previously.

The SMAC would be wise to let their final recommendations simply work through the club system and not pre-publicize them on this unofficial site. There will be time enough and a process for racers to support or attempt to unwind the SMAC recommendations.

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#903
Sean - MiataCage

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:optimist: The part when it goes out for Member input and a few wise guys get a few smart people to write letters not recommending the change....  I really doubt the SMAC got a lot of letters asking for the change from people who race 1.6 cars, certainly not enough to move any needle by any measure....

 

Like that has never happened before....... Don't hate the player, hate the game. :)


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#904
Johnny D

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#905
Ron Alan

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Like that has never happened before....... Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Is that something like dont hate the protester, hate the guilty party? Or, cant see the message past the messenger? Maybe i'm off-topic... :dope:


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#906
38bfast

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Is that something like dont hate the protester, hate the guilty party? Or, cant see the message past the messenger? Maybe i'm off-topic... :dope:


Yea that might be a dig.
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#907
steveracer

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The part when it goes out for Member input and a few wise guys get a few smart people to write letters not recommending the change....  I really doubt the SMAC got a lot of letters asking for the change from people who race 1.6 cars, certainly not enough to move any needle by any measure....

As I recall, there were a few of us who wanted to be "allowed" to make the change, but we were over ruled by a small margin by chicken littles(chickens little?) who were vehemently opposed to anyone doing it. I don't want to, so you shouldn't be able to.

 

I wrote a letter, and encouraged everyone I knew to as well.

 

Don't care now, I've gone to the dark side.


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#908
38bfast

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Does anyone have first hand knolage converting from NA to NB suspension. We all know what it's intended to do, but has anyone tried it? A-B comparison? For a proposed change of this magnitude I would expect the SMAC to want some real world on track data.
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#909
Steve Scheifler

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I wouldn't trust any claims of being able to quantify it from track data. Suspension geometry and the impact of lowering a car below it's design are well understood. Combine that with actual measurements and calculations as Cam has posted and the benefits are clear enough. And as Jim noted, Mazda redesigned the suspension for a reason, no doubt including the knowledge that many cars were being lowered for street and track.
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#910
FTodaro

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front subframe

upper control arms

spindles

steering rack, Power or manual, Manual racks are very hard to find very costly new. 

tie rods

99 sway bar front. 

rear uprights

What about the Bracing? the 99+ has the bracing around the Diff?


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#911
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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Again why the heck would you want to upgrade the suspension to an NB. I understand it will make the car handle better and keep it more stable in corners but does nothing to help with exiting acceleration were the 1.6 lacks. All this will do is help the 1.6 if it's on pole.

Let me put this another way it's like putting a 1.6 motor into a NB . So your saying if you put a 1.6 motor into a NB car then we have better parity ?

I think I just shot beer out of my nose ! :) lmao !!!!!
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#912
Steve Scheifler

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Kuch, the reality is that we didn't get anything to "fix" what the 1.6 lacks in terms of power and probably won't next year because it isn't a single easy bolt-on. And although slightly better, or more consistent, handling might not help at those times when we're getting checked up or screw up and lack torque to recover, it will make the cars easier to drive at the limit and stay ahead once we get there. If a 1.8 can pull me out of a slow corner then it's all the more important that I exit faster. And if I'm making the pass then I need as stable a car as possible to make it stick. I just don't see a downside to a more predictable and stable platform, especially for the car so often run by people still on a steep learning curve. Let's make the "beginner's" car a good trainer.
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#913
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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Steve I understand what your talking about but these adjustments are done at a Mojors level of skill ( top prep and top driver ). They are not set for a beginner level or the class would be 100% worst then it is now. We are so close with parity now and are only talking a few tenths here and there. It's up to the novice to work to get to the top level and not just handed to them or we all would be going home with a trophy in our hands every weekend.
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#914
Tom Scheifler

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Again why the heck would you want to upgrade the suspension to an NB. I understand it will make the car handle better and keep it more stable in corners but does nothing to help with exiting acceleration were the 1.6 lacks.


If it means my tires perform noticeably better (more consistent) for an entire race I'd want to try it to see if the benefits outweigh any negatives.
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#915
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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If it means my tires perform noticeably better (more consistent) for an entire race I'd want to try it to see if the benefits outweigh any negatives.


Tom that's probably the best answer and can't argue with that but with that being said it's a gamble and wouldn't know the answer to that until someone tries it.
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#916
Steve Scheifler

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I don't understand, or I failed to make my point clear. No charity, no rewards weight, no unfair advantage for the less skilled. Just equivalent overall performance from cars that can't be identical. It's easy to take advantage of extra torque in cars this slow, but we can't fix that easily. Making all the cars handle more similarly is something we can do. Admittedly if done then the NA would theoretically have a slight edge due to lower weight, just as the 1.8 would continue to have an edge in torque. But my point is that it does not make sense for the least experienced or least skilled drivers to be stuck with cars that amplify their mistakes while the better drivers, and better funded drivers, have a more forgiving platform. If that can be remedied then perhaps we should make it an option.
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#917
cam

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Does anyone have first hand knolage converting from NA to NB suspension. We all know what it's intended to do, but has anyone tried it? A-B comparison? For a proposed change of this magnitude I would expect the SMAC to want some real world on track data.

Yes, when I rebuilt my car to SCCA STL rules after major contact when I had to replace all of the front suspension including sub frame, steering rack, control arms, spindles.  Basically the whole front of the car, I picked up a complete used 99+ front suspension including brakes for under $300.  It was on Craigslist so no idea if that price is repeatable.  Had to fix/replace a few other things while I was at it also.  Next time I raced with my "STL" suspension and weight but still 1.6 SM legal motor, my lap time were very consistent and inline with the front running 99+ SMs.  It did not make me faster per se, rather it seems to help me be more consistent.  The car just felt happier. I have since moved on to other upgrades so unable to go back to true back to back testing. (control arm bushing, adjustable shocks and different spring rates)  I'm glad I did it, money well spent giving life to an old and beat-up car.  Since I'm now racing STL, I have no dog in this hunt, but would like to see the 1.6 in SM having a fighting chance.

 

Added:

While the 99+ suspension upgrade is nice, IMHO, is not the key factor holding the 1.6 back.  What the 1.6 really needs is more torque at the lower RPMs (guessing around 5K RPMs) and a way to keep the motor from losing power half way through a sprint race, commonly referred to as heat soak.  The suggested 99+ suspension should be optional and would most likely show up on the top preped cars. 


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#918
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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I understand but I can honestly say I wouldn't waist my money on this upgrade until I can see actual results. Now if your talking about adding more TQ I would gladly spend that money as I know it would make a definite difference.

Remember that a 1.6 is a awesome car for a new guy because he or she would have to learn good setup skills and learn good car control instead of relying on motor to make up for there mistakes. As I feel this would make them a better driver down the road. I love my car and love the feed back my 1.6 gives me I just wish it had the same TQ as the NB.
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#919
Sean - MiataCage

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I don't understand, or I failed to make my point clear. No charity, no rewards weight, no unfair advantage for the less skilled. Just equivalent overall performance from cars that can't be identical. It's easy to take advantage of extra torque in cars this slow, but we can't fix that easily. Making all the cars handle more similarly is something we can do. Admittedly if done then the NA would theoretically have a slight edge due to lower weight, just as the 1.8 would continue to have an edge in torque. But my point is that it does not make sense for the least experienced or least skilled drivers to be stuck with cars that amplify their mistakes while the better drivers, and better funded drivers, have a more forgiving platform. If that can be remedied then perhaps we should make it an option.

 

(Sean's personal opinion - not SMAC)

 

It costs competitors money........ The amount has yet to be seen, but with labor included I have to assume close to $1,000.00 to do the swap.  In my opinion it does nothing for the average racer as handling is not the issue holding the 1.6L back.  Many will assume that they have to do it either from what their buddies tell them or what prep shops tell them and I don't see that as helping the class or parity.

 

As I think it was Ralph suggested, we need a detailed listing of parts needed and a rough idea of cost.  Then we need someone to do the swap to figure out what we are missing.

 

One of the other big challenges we have in the SMAC is we have to take into account what our suggestions do to the tech process.  If we were to upgrade all of these parts for some but not all cars, how does tech know which track measurement applies to which cars?  Agree that a sticker would be a pretty easy solution, but selling that to tech volunteers as one more thing to try to figure out is not as easy a task as maybe it should be.  I also expect someone to say we never measure track width and that may very well be true, but you have to consider what the rules are as written and then how you enforce the rule per the book not by the what we have done in the past method.  

 

I personally just don't see this as an immediate concern for the cars.... If the masses want it and the letters support it, then we can certainly run it up the flag pole to the CRB right away and ask for it to be approved.  As a 1.6L fan I am all for anything I can get for the cars, but not if it costs the average competitor money and does not provide a decent return on that investment.

 

Thanks... Sean


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#920
Steve Scheifler

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I understand but I can honestly say I wouldn't waist my money on this upgrade until I can see actual results. Now if your talking about adding more TQ I would gladly spend that money as I know it would make a definite difference.

Remember that a 1.6 is a awesome car for a new guy because he or she would have to learn good setup skills and learn good car control instead of relying on motor to make up for there mistakes. As I feel this would make them a better driver down the road. I love my car and love the feed back my 1.6 gives me I just wish it had the same TQ as the NB.


Let's put them on old snow tires so they really need to learn car control. I guess we'll just disagree on this.
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