1.6 Data & Testing
#861
Posted 11-02-2015 04:42 PM
Who are these people? Am I in this group? I've been doing this for 10 years so really, really, really hope I can get into this group. Maybe theres a secret handshake, but I'm a quick learner and maybe you could teach it to me? And once we successfully get the class back what are we doing with it? Will you be president? Could I be VP? We could ban corner balancing and alignments at the track. And only allow racers to buy one set of new tires a year. Naturally no testing even on race weekends will be allowed. Absolutely no dyno work and of course we'll seal motors and require 100 races before replacement. I've heard some drivers are getting professional coaching and even driving in other series to get extra seat time. Gonna have to put a stop to that! It's really time to control these costs and get our class back
CNJ
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#862
Posted 11-02-2015 04:56 PM
If the SMAC makes changes to actually bring the less than 5% of all the 1.6 cars who really do want to race their cars competitively within Sm up to a more competitive level. I think they have succeeded. The less than 5% don't need all that much.
Jim
East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080
#863
Posted 11-02-2015 05:34 PM
What if all you have is a 1.6, can't afford anything else and just want a place to play with other drivers in the same boat?
."
You have that now!
Or you can start ssm in you're region. Just don't make the rules the same as sm so that one more person gets a trophy. You can call it want you want but that's exactly what smse and sm2 are.
#864
Posted 11-02-2015 05:45 PM
#865
Posted 11-02-2015 07:37 PM
Both the NC and the NB are ITS cars. Not sure any NC's have been built or will be competitive, but it will be interesting to see if some get built and how competitive they are vs. the NB after the weight is pummeled on.
Jeff at Autotechniks is building an ITS nc car now so we should see soon.
- John Wilding likes this
#866
Posted 11-02-2015 07:54 PM
Now I know I could have done better in my last couple of races but I was trying to play nice. To make a pass in a 1.6 you almost have to do a bomb pass and a lot of guys out there don't like that and feel if you do your driving like an ass&ole. So that's why I'm looking for some help with TQ. Because if I'm stuck with my 1.6 for next year I just feel there is going to be a few upset people with some of my dive bombs I will do if the cars stay as they are. Don't get me wrong I won't (try not) to hit anybody but don't leave the door slightly open because I will stuff it in there. Now my car has some power and can catch a NB by the end of the back straight at Mid-O but I feel it's just a little to late to make a smart pass without putting my car or the other guys car at risk.
Not much help just a little help guys where not asking for much. Let the 1.6 have a header and add 25-50lbs to it and be done with the hole thing. Cheap easy bolt on that anyone can do ! IMHO !
#867
Posted 11-02-2015 08:16 PM
Why? Because it is not better for the class: it doesn't make anything safer, does not improve the competition, and most of all adds COST. NB suspension isn't free. That's not a false argument, that's the facts. The class has had 1.6 and 1.8 for a long long time. Choosing the year of car to race is not a new decision that needs to be addressed with a rule change.
We just spent a considerable amount of time making sure the 1.6 was competitive. We have achieved that goal (that the previous SMAC hadn't already is debatable), and there is no reason to continue to make costly changes for the sake of making cars that can never be identical, less identical.
Your argument, on the other hand, means that if I want to put a VVT in my 99 I should be allowed to do so in order to have identical cars because I feel it would be the right thing to do to have a spec class.
It's a slippery slope. Allowing wholesale updates to cars means we will all need to update to VVT drivetrains. Except the cars will still not be the same because they aren't the same chassis. So we all need to go out and get 2005 cars so we have a spec class. And the same people will prep their cars well, and the same people won't (or they will think they have). The same drivers will win and the same drivers will finish DFL. We will all have spent a lot more money and achieved nothing. Actually, this sounds like a great idea as a shop owner...but a terrible idea for the class. So I defer to what's best for the class.
Thanks Brandon for some insight into your's and Todd's thinking! Completely with Steve on his "usual" comment. Anyone with half a brain could recognize some efforts to persuade arent based on facts(Hope that doesnt go over your head Steve )
My 2 cents...the slippery slope argument doesnt hold water I believe. Outside of the motor...every element of a VVT drivetrain can be used now correct? The extra X brace the VVT comes with is not allowed on any car...including the VVT. Tranny, driveshaft, axles, and diff are allowed on any year car. Early cars can upgrade to use the 6 bolt U brace. So what are we talking about in the NB suspension debate? Basically what is different for sure is...Subframe, steering rack with tie rods and i believe spindles. Lower and upper control arms are the same with the exception of the upper ball joint...which BTW are different size between 99-00 and 01+ as well as from all early cars. Only difference in the rear of the car is the uprights...all else is the same.
I really have no idea if this would be some kind of a dramatic performance change but will defer to others who say it changes very little. To repeat myself...not mandatory but optional...why not? People have ALREADY choosen 1.6 cars(be it this year or 10 years ago) and would like to CHOOSE to improve their car given the opportunity. Why continue to tell them it COSTS to much out of one side of your mouth and out of the other side tell them the only SMART thing to do is upgrade to a different car(my words...your words CHOOSE)
If there is a slippery slope...it started a long time ago! To suddenly say..."stop right here" no more, is kind of arbitrary. Bolt on parts in stock models that are EASILY interchanged have overtime been given consideration...and when it makes sense are allowed. Cost to change form a 1.6 diff to a 1.8 torsen is a lot more costly than this idea in my parts world.
I understand Bruces comments about a "red herring" with this suggestion...because it is taking away from what he feels will be meaningful help. But the effort here to squash this makes little sense to me...I am slow sometimes!
This statement is confusing..."no reason to continue to make costly changes for the sake of making cars that can never be identical, less identical"
Wouldn't a NB front subframe and parts make the cars more the same...not less? And remember, Mazda changed the design...and according to the experts here it benefits the handling of the car and make it more predictable(safer!)
Ron
RAmotorsports
#868
Posted 11-02-2015 10:17 PM
The course is set..... We (SMAC) have made our recommendations to the CRB and they will be voting on them very soon and then it will be made public. I guess Todd could spill our recommendations if he wants to, but that is up to him. Outside of the request we have made the rules for 2016 are set in place as there is no more time this season to get any more rule changes passed to be effective in 2016.
Honestly.... I would like to see everything calm down for a little while and see what the CRB does and then see what the changes (hopefully we get) will do for the 1.6L. The NB suspension components for an NA isn't going to happen in 2016, so we are out to 2017 before that is up for discussion again so maybe we could drop that one for a little while and focus on the current changes and rules for 2016.
I am confident that the changes we have requested will give the A+ prep cars and A+ drivers in 1.6's the opportunity to be on the podium at a Majors at some tracks. The changes we are talking about are not going to make mid pack 1.6's start winning Majors. If it did that would be a huge dis-service to the class. It is going to take a little bit of time to figure out with race results what the changes have done and how it changes the parity. This is also going to require that A+ cars and A+ drivers show up in 1.6's to compare against the 99-05's to truly see what the changes have done.
It takes A+ prep and A+ driving to be on the podium at any Majors regardless of model year of vehicle. Personally I believe that is part of what is great about SM. They are many who have spent the money who didn't have the talent who could not win in SM and have moved on. You can not buy a podium in SM...... The pool here is obviously deep.
Sean
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#869
Posted 11-02-2015 10:36 PM
Unfortunately, there is a tendency to wait too long and provide too little time for communication out, testing, discussion and communication back to the club. Regardless of the arbitrary restrictions on when changes will be made, discussions should continue. Waiting until we see how 2016 shakes out only guarantees that it will then be too late to do a thorough job of evaluating other ideas, providing meaningful information to fellow racers and gauging interest before we are told the 2017 deadline has passed. Let's not keep making the same mistakes.
#870
Posted 11-03-2015 08:18 AM
Can someone tell me exactly how the 1.6 rules changes are following this process?
http://cdn.growasset....pdf?1432133572
#871
Posted 11-03-2015 08:40 AM
The course is set..... We (SMAC) have made our recommendations to the CRB and they will be voting on them very soon and then it will be made public. I guess Todd could spill our recommendations if he wants to, but that is up to him. Outside of the request we have made the rules for 2016 are set in place as there is no more time this season to get any more rule changes passed to be effective in 2016.
Honestly.... I would like to see everything calm down for a little while and see what the CRB does and then see what the changes (hopefully we get) will do for the 1.6L. The NB suspension components for an NA isn't going to happen in 2016, so we are out to 2017 before that is up for discussion again so maybe we could drop that one for a little while and focus on the current changes and rules for 2016.
I am confident that the changes we have requested will give the A+ prep cars and A+ drivers in 1.6's the opportunity to be on the podium at a Majors at some tracks. The changes we are talking about are not going to make mid pack 1.6's start winning Majors. If it did that would be a huge dis-service to the class. It is going to take a little bit of time to figure out with race results what the changes have done and how it changes the parity. This is also going to require that A+ cars and A+ drivers show up in 1.6's to compare against the 99-05's to truly see what the changes have done.
It takes A+ prep and A+ driving to be on the podium at any Majors regardless of model year of vehicle. Personally I believe that is part of what is great about SM. They are many who have spent the money who didn't have the talent who could not win in SM and have moved on. You can not buy a podium in SM...... The pool here is obviously deep.
Sean
Thats all fine but why not just tell people what the suggestion is since the SMAC represents the class as a whole. If the CRB does or does not make changes so be it but to keep the SMAC suggestion hidden does not seem correct nor necessary.
#872
Posted 11-03-2015 08:43 AM
Hi Mike.... I looked at your link and I guess I don't see the obvious. What are we missing?
www.miatacage.com
360-606-7734
#873
Posted 11-03-2015 08:49 AM
Thats all fine but why not just tell people what the suggestion is since the SMAC represents the class as a whole. If the CRB does or does not make changes so be it but to keep the SMAC suggestion hidden does not seem correct nor necessary.
That is up to Todd as the Chair of the SMAC. Not sure if he needs CRB approval or not, but it's not for me to say so I'm just trying to respect the chain of command.
This is part of the slippery slope of being more transparent and opening up dialogue on these types of forums. I personally am all for complete transparency, but please remember that NOTHING on this site is official and anything said here is nothing but internet chatter. I think it's good chatter, but we have to support the formal process, or change the process if it doesn't fit the needs to the members. In the past you probably might not have had as much dialogue about what we are doing, so I think and hope that the communication will continue to evolve into more transparency as we move forward.
Thanks.... .Sean
www.miatacage.com
360-606-7734
#874
Posted 11-03-2015 08:51 AM
This ^^^Honestly.... I would like to see everything calm down for a little while and see what the CRB does and then see what the changes (hopefully we get) will do for the 1.6L. The NB suspension components for an NA isn't going to happen in 2016, so we are out to 2017 before that is up for discussion again so maybe we could drop that one for a little while and focus on the current changes and rules for 2016.
I am confident that the changes we have requested will give the A+ prep cars and A+ drivers in 1.6's the opportunity to be on the podium at a Majors at some tracks. The changes we are talking about are not going to make mid pack 1.6's start winning Majors. If it did that would be a huge dis-service to the class. It is going to take a little bit of time to figure out with race results what the changes have done and how it changes the parity. This is also going to require that A+ cars and A+ drivers show up in 1.6's to compare against the 99-05's to truly see what the changes have done.
It takes A+ prep and A+ driving to be on the podium at any Majors regardless of model year of vehicle. Personally I believe that is part of what is great about SM. They are many who have spent the money who didn't have the talent who could not win in SM and have moved on. You can not buy a podium in SM...... The pool here is obviously deep.
Sean
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East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080
#875
Posted 11-03-2015 08:53 AM
If you( anyone) wants to pursue the susp changes or anything else. You can and should send a letter and the discussion will start. the smac has to discuss ever letter that comes in. However with the rules season the Bod imposed on us 4-5 years ago, anything at this point will be effective 1/17 other than plate/weightUnfortunately, there is a tendency to wait too long and provide too little time for communication out, testing, discussion and communication back to the club. Regardless of the arbitrary restrictions on when changes will be made, discussions should continue. Waiting until we see how 2016 shakes out only guarantees that it will then be too late to do a thorough job of evaluating other ideas, providing meaningful information to fellow racers and gauging interest before we are told the 2017 deadline has passed. Let's not keep making the same mistakes.
East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080
#876
Posted 11-03-2015 09:21 AM
If you( anyone) wants to pursue the susp changes or anything else. You can and should send a letter and the discussion will start. the smac has to discuss ever letter that comes in. However with the rules season the Bod imposed on us 4-5 years ago, anything at this point will be effective 1/17 other than plate/weight
Agreed.... I should have said "implementation" and not "discussion" until 2017 in my earlier note. Send the letters and it will go through it's formal process and could be approved in the normal timeline but not implemented until the 2017 season.
With your letters, please, please say why you want it, what its going to do for the car, cost, parity etc. Sometimes we get letters that simply say the basics, so in this case I can see some letters that say "Give the NA the NB suspension". That's fine, and we will discuss it, but it is much better to understand the authors intent if we have more detail. Ex.... NA suspension parts are getting hard to come by and expensive so the NB subframes will reduce cost. That was an example, I'm not saying it does or doesn't.
Thanks.... Sean
www.miatacage.com
360-606-7734
#877
Posted 11-03-2015 09:34 AM
Can someone tell me exactly how the 1.6 rules changes are following this process?
While it's a correct, documented reference to the process we (SMAC) are involved in (rules changes being submitted to the CRB for review/input), it is by far now more efficient with the application of technology as evidenced by 43+ pages of comments on this thread.
In this instance we've had nearly 3 months worth of input (member, committee, & CRB), debate, data analyzed (moving the process all the way down to "Recommended rule change") and we (SMAC) have submitted preliminary syntax on how we feel the recommended changed need to be put out in FastTrack.
We are operating at "box 2" immediately under the decision diamond I feel.
This is all still dependent upon the CRB approving of the rule changes themselves (we are still in the dark on whether they have been approved or not) and could still be altered based upon what is issued as "approved" by the board. They may feel something should have a wider or smaller tolerance or allowance than we initially thought or out of our 4/5/6 rule suggestions they only take 3 of them. And even then the CRB needs approval of the Board of Directors to actually implement said rule change(s).
Once the CRB approves the rule change, it is sent out to Membership for input, and barring a mutinous letter-writing campaign, will more than likely be approved by the BoD in November/December as a 2016 rule.
Does that answer your question Mike?
#878
Posted 11-03-2015 11:28 AM
How about those selling the thought of the 99 suspension up-grade provide a total list of parts and their cost. Similar to the Torsen up-grade package.
My 1.6 will not be suspension up-graded.
#879
Posted 11-03-2015 11:41 AM
If you( anyone) wants to pursue the susp changes or anything else. You can and should send a letter and the discussion will start. the smac has to discuss ever letter that comes in. However with the rules season the Bod imposed on us 4-5 years ago, anything at this point will be effective 1/17 other than plate/weight
I'm not concerned about the SMAC discussing anything at the moment, it's not about them in the early stages and no need to take up their time until/unless enough drivers can agree that we want to make a proposal. My point is that WE should not sit around waiting based on some schedule imposed by others.
#880
Posted 11-03-2015 11:48 AM
Back to the future? Forward to the past? Whatever....we've done this before...
http://forum.specmia...781.html#000041
In summary, from DaveW:
front subframe, steering rack, and 2 5mm spacers.
-tch
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