177 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

Steve&Tom....thanks for the effort and time you put in. Dont get side tracked or sucked into the minutia...you are giving hope to a lot of guys that will keep this class going! And Dave...I can see you smiling through my computer!

A second thanks to Steve and Tom for the maxed effort they put in in their clapped out $hit boxes (got to put a little something here and there for Caveman)  , and furthermore for their on track data/info sharing.

 

 

No idea how long the 1.6 will stick around in SM or if SM will remain SM but with the ND in full swing eventually things will change. We had 25 1.6 SM's in their own class at a recent vintage weekend 

Ron, yes indeed I did a lot of smiling while reading the above 1.6 stuff, UNTILL I got to the vintage weekend. BUT, as I think about it, maybe the vintage races and me would be a good fit.

[Steve Scheifler]

Still comparing my data with Jim's, T2/ segment 2 shows that after coming through T2 with more speed I'm still braking when Jim has gone back to the throttle. With slow(er) in and fast out he makes up .07 through T2 and the short chute to T3. So if we look at T1-2 combined our advantage shrinks to perhaps 0.11-0.12. The bumps mentioned above at the transition from oval to infield can be a problem under braking, causing lockup. The key to combining the best of Jim's approach and ours is avoiding that, in which case I suspect we could get back part of what we're losing through T2. But at this event that combine sector was advantage homeboys by about 0.12.

T3/3a goes to Jim by a similar margin. We work on this one every time we drive Gateway because a lot of people have trouble there so it's a great place to make up ground or open a gap. Compared to the average we are generally fast through there but we know we often give up time to the best. So we give it consideration during setup and work on it at the track, but when trying to improve more important corners it generally ends up being compromised. I gave up a bit over 0.11 on average and Tom did better giving up about 0.09. With the lighter weight and better tires we should be faster through there not slower, but I'm not sure in this case how much was setup and how much just better touch and technique by Jim. I felt I tested the limits there frequently so it may be some of both, but kudos to Jim on making it look easier than it is. Advantage Jim bringing the net difference back close to zero.

[Jim Drago]

Steve
Good points.. I will have to give up my security blanket and try 5th next year in test day.
Jim

[Steve Scheifler]

Steve
Good points.. I will have to give up my security blanket and try 5th next year in test day.
Jim

 

I'd hate to see you ding a pretty car.  Look at our sh!tboxes!!!  No, by all means stick with what you've been doing, you haven't lost here in a long time. And for that matter, don't even bother with following the rest of this thread, it's just a psych job anyway.

[Steve Scheifler]

Sector 3 is T5-6, the long right before the final left back on to the oval. Like T2 and T7 there are multiple ways to take this one. It is wide, requires an abrupt change of direction coming in and tightens up a lot as it becomes T6. Different cars seem to do best with different lines and you can see that in the videos from Jim and Tom. In the bottom section of the screenshot below we see the two fastest examples from each with Jim ending the prior sector (T3) slightly faster but slows more entering T5. From there they both scrub some speed despite being at least part throttle. In the upper graph you can see that Jim's lateral Gs fall with his speed to below 1.0 while Tom maintains 1.1G. In the video you can see Tom gaining and also that his line is different. As they go into T6 (where it tightens up is T6) Jim is back on the throttle a bit earlier and gains back just a bit on the short run down to the brake point for T7.

So is this is case of the theoretical cornering advantage of the lighter car? Impossible to say for sure because they did take different lines and they were on different tires, but in other corners Jim consistently pulls sustained loads of over 1G in lefts and 1.17-1.2 in rights, so it seems likely that with a different line through here he could equal Tom's pace even with his seemingly inferior tires.

We look at this sector as a case where the speed through the corner is more important than exit unless you have someone looking to dive down the inside for T7 if they get the slightest run out of T6. We feel it out early to see where it's happiest through the first half (T5) even if it doesn't leave us ideally set up for T6. Sometimes it ends up more inside for shorter distance and sometimes it's a wider line making a short straight between the two for a higher average speed.

Zero responses so far about any of this. That's fine I guess, but we were expecting some questions or different interpretations of the data. I know, it takes time and most probably don't really care, but I thought maybe some of the people Kyle says think the same way he does would offer constructive input rather than just taking shots at us offline.

Attached Files

•  T5-6.gif   297.9KB   0 downloads

[Steve Scheifler]

I left out the average sector time difference. Looking at the best 1/3 of laps by each the average is right at 0.15 sec per lap advantage to the homeboy and his 1.6, now you can decide how much was tires, setup, driver etc. If you think it points to the 1.6 being an inherent overdog, please explain.

[MPR22]

Ill bite.  No way on one track with the limited data presented could you truly determine a CTH.  I would expect both cars to have strengths and weaknesses on any given track.  I would expect one of them to race better.  I would expect one driver to be faster than the other driver on certain sections even if they were driving the same car.  I appreciate your teams efforts to bring, data and video into the process because before I believe it was lets see what we can do to make them quiet down for a little while.  

 

That being said until the suspension is changed out the cars will handle too differently to make meaningful use of some of the information.  I believe and I bet we can find data that the 1.6 should be the fastest car in a pure fastest lap challenge.  That does not indicate how it races.  To turn in the fastest lap you only have to hit 8-21 turns perfectly once.  To win a race you have to hit them over and over with as little error as possible.  Until the suspension is changed in the 1.6 it will be at a disadvantage in a race.  If you look at all the date not just the top third of the fastest laps you will see the 99' or the driver or both were more consistent.  I can drive a car at 90% very fast and for a long time without making a .3 error (in one turn) on most tracks.  At 95% that time drops dramatically and at 100% (qualifying pace) it is much more difficult.  Look at TBL on your data during a qualifying session.  If it is not within .2 tenths of your fastest lap you will see what I am talking about.  I would say most top drivers are .4+ from fastest to TBL.    All that proves is the closer to 100% you get the harder it is to repeat.  The 99 is still easier to drive closer to the 100% mark.  

 

If you open that can of worms by allowing the suspension change now then we will start having to do weights and plates all over again which is not the end of the world.  

 

It is very hard to get these cars to race exactly the same and it is even harder to please everyone.  

 

Keep working on making your cars and drivers as good as they can be. 

[Tom Scheifler]

^^^^ +1

[Steve Scheifler]

+2

You are correct. We don't expect to prove what the exact differences are with this excercise, but we can respond to the immediate assumptions and assertions of others who had made up their minds before the checkered flag dropped much less having taken time to ask questions and study the data. Not that those minds are open to be changed, but they do influence others.

What I think we are seeing is that the data does not show a clear advantage to either car, or that the 1.6 driver was as fast despite being a mid-pack hack in a low-budget POS car, which is exactly the story being sold.

[Jim Drago]

+2

You are correct. We don't expect to prove what the exact differences are with this exercise, but we can respond to the immediate assumptions and assertions of others who had made up their minds before the checkered flag dropped much less having taken time to ask questions and study the data. Not that those minds are open to be changed, but they do influence others.

I think it is important to note that many have made up their minds in BOTH directions before the checkered flag drops and I bet few of those have or will not change their mind in either direction.   

 

What I think we are seeing is that the data does not show a clear advantage to either car, or that the 1.6 driver was as fast despite being a mid-pack hack in a low-budget POS car, which is exactly the story being sold.

I am posting for the forum as you know my private opinions..  While I happen to agree with your opinions.. parts of your posts like "the 1.6 driver was as fast despite being a mid-pack hack in a low-budget POS car, which is exactly the story being sold.' makes it look like you are protecting or campaigning and doesn't help in the presenting of the facts. . I know that not to be the case, but others will take it that way. I know it is your car and your brother, it is hard not to take some of this shit personally, but you just cant take the bait if you are trying to do this and come off as non biased.  For the record I have not heard  anyone publicly or privately call Tom a hack and I don't believe that to be the case, especially at his home track.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

FTR  I do not believe that either of you are nearly as good of drivers as Jim...  Not sure that means I'm calling you hack drivers... I have not personally said that or thought it, but I do think Jim is a better driver then you both.  

 

If that hurts your feelings sorry!

 

 As for the comment about never seeing jim move his hands so much in a race, well I hadnt either untill i saw the ATL majors vid from Jim.  IMO Jim never drives harder then is required to get the job done and he doesnt post much video...  and no this comment is not pointed towards the 1.6 brothers. 

[Steve Scheifler]

Jim, fair enough, but you may not be hearing some of what gets back to me. I've been around SCCA before most here were born and know people who have been around even longer. I hear stuff. So drop the word "hack" and the rest is spot-on. They are certainly welcome to their opinions of course but they could at least be better informed before sharing them.

[Steve Scheifler]

Kyle, call it what you will, it's not about my feelings. Neither of us claimed to be as good a driver as Jim, but hopefully you recognize that there is far more to it. So let me ask, after your initial "still need a turbo" post about the results, had you learned that Jim was on 7 cycle tires and was having additional trouble with T7 (onto the straight) would you still have been as adamantly certain that for Tom to keep up the 1.6 must be an overdog? What would have been "reasonable"?

Let's tackle this from the other end. How far off do you expect us to be at our home track in equivalent cars? Please answer that, it's important as a point of reference.

[Michael Novak]

I think it is important to note that many have made up their minds in BOTH directions before the checkered flag drops and I bet few of those have or will not change their mind in either direction.   

 

I am posting for the forum as you know my private opinions..  While I happen to agree with your opinions.. parts of your posts like "the 1.6 driver was as fast despite being a mid-pack hack in a low-budget POS car, which is exactly the story being sold.' makes it look like you are protecting or campaigning and doesn't help in the presenting of the facts. . I know that not to be the case, but others will take it that way. I know it is your car and your brother, it is hard not to take some of this shit personally, but you just cant take the bait if you are trying to do this and come off as non biased.  For the record I have not heard  anyone publicly or privately call Tom a hack and I don't believe that to be the case, especially at his home track.

Fine---  NO one wants to say it----Jim is a Hack....   There it is finally out....  

 

I think Jim and about 5 or so others are the measuring stick for the class. When you beat or run with them you have done well. Running close some or all the time means you AND your car are at least in the game.... 

[Jim Drago]

Jim, fair enough, but you may not be hearing some of what gets back to me. I've been around SCCA before most here were born and know people who have been around even longer. I hear stuff. So drop the work "hack" and the rest is spot-on. They are certainly welcome to their opinions of course but they could at least be better informed before sharing them.

 

Steve

Fair enough.. The closer you run to the front.. The thicker the skin you will need Same shit still gets back to all of us about our own driving..  I have heard from many people how each of the top 10-12 drivers I look to as the top guys all suck and all cant drive.  And front runner's whine as much or more than the rest, none lose on ability.. It is always the car.  I have one spreading rumors about the compliance of my car right now as a matter of fact.

[Tom Hampton]

Steve
Fair enough.. The closer you run to the front.. The thicker the skin you will need Same shit still gets back to all of us about our own driving..  I have heard from many people how each of the top 10-12 drivers I look to as the top guys all suck and all cant drive.  And front runner's whine as much or more than the rest, none lose on ability.. It is always the car.  I have one spreading rumors about the compliance of my car right now as a matter of fact.

If you'd stop outspending me...I'd stop trying to out-rumor you.  

[MPR22]

Steve
Fair enough.. The closer you run to the front.. The thicker the skin you will need Same shit still gets back to all of us about our own driving..  I have heard from many people how each of the top 10-12 drivers I look to as the top guys all suck and all cant drive.  And front runner's whine as much or more than the rest, none lose on ability.. It is always the car.  I have one spreading rumors about the compliance of my car right now as a matter of fact.

It's not me.

Oh damn, you prefaced that with top 10 or 12 so you already knew it wasn't me. I have only screamed about one car this year and magically the next race it was only slightly better than your car.

[wreckerboy]

If you'd stop outspending me...I'd stop trying to out-rumor you.  

It's all in the paint, right?