166 replies to this topic

[chris haldeman]

I'm willing too bet Danny would let Leland kick him in the balls if he thought that would help his recovery :-)

[Jim Drago]

I'm willing too bet Danny would let Leland kick him in the balls if he thought that would help his recovery :-)

Maybe a punch in the face.. Not sure I could do he kick thing myself  

[Danny Steyn]

I'm willing too bet Danny would let Leland kick him in the balls if he thought that would help his recovery :-)

Sure would, as many times as he wants

[Jim Drago]

Sure would, as many times as he wants

You guys are killing me!
 
 
My take on the entire thing..   We can ALWAYS learn from these accidents especially with the advantage of hindsight. 
 
Despite what most of the internet experts say on Jalopnik , I dont think this accident was Danny's fault. I do think that Leland(I dont know other than what I see in video) was moving, starting to slide even with no more room to correct as/before Danny got there. It is likley we have a similar incident regardless, possibly not quite as severe, but no one knows that answer, I certainly don't.  
 
With the benefit of hindsight, I think if Danny had to do it over again, he follows the T2 car up the left side( which should be faster up the esses, but no idea of driver ability and perhaps why Danny went right?) In Danny's defense, there was a decent size hole and it closed really fast.  IMO, I dont think three wide up the esses works well in any situation, it seems to end in tears more often than not.
If I take anything from this it is: 
1) Always be very aware of faster approaching cars, hold your line,especially when in a mixed class field
2) Not a good idea to go three wide up through the esses unless it is last lap for win at NASA champs.
 
 
Accidents,mistakes and injuries will always be a part of our sport, anything we can do to minimize them is in all of our best interests. I am sure both of these gentleman wished they had a do over here. I and most others on this forum have done FAR worse than either in this video and got away with it. It was a terrible set of circumstances that all came together at the wrong time
 Thanks for posting the video, many may have chose not too. 
Jim

[Rob Burgoon]

I expect most stewards would see it as Danny at fault.

[Peter Olivola]

This steward sees it as a racing incident.  As much as everyone likes to make the claim that the overtaking driver has the responsibility to effect a safe pass, and the rules say this, it is also the overtaken driver's responsibility to be aware he is being overtaken and not make any move that would block the overtaking driver, also in the rules.

 

6.11. RULES OF THE ROAD

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct

A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.

 

I expect most stewards would see it as Danny at fault.

[DrDomm]

Lead car (Miata) did not take the racing line (hug the inside curb at T2).  This is where the incident started.  My assumption is that he thought he was leaving room for the BMW to go to the inside, but the BMW assumed he could easily pass to the outside (I think that was a fair assumption) if the Miata followed the usual racing line.  With the Miata now in the middle of the track, and the BMW on the left, it looks optimistic to go 3 wide...or to be the 2nd car to pass the Miata, but on the opposite side as the 1st.  That said, the Miata didn't hold its line.

 

I can't give advice on driving fast, but I will (hopefully) never forget my driving school, where we were told to follow the racing line and be predictable when being passed by faster cars/drivers.  Sadly, that didn't happen.

 

We can't allow this to be labeled a  "Racing Incident".  That implies that it wasn't preventable, and was just bad luck.  I disagree.

[Tom Hampton]

Dannys video on Jalopnik...  Reading the comments were pretty funny.. especially the one that said Leland should be able to kick Danny in the balls  You got to love the internet and all of the experts 

I've never really spent much time at Jalopnik. Seems like a bunch of mostly "tuner" wannabe douchebags. I used to read a couple of other Gawker sites several years ago---don't even bother with those anymore. Honestly, I'm surprised at how "tame" the Jalopnik posts are on this, compare to the usual gawker discussion drivel.

[Rob Burgoon]

This steward sees it as a racing incident.  As much as everyone likes to make the claim that the overtaking driver has the responsibility to effect a safe pass, and the rules say this, it is also the overtaken driver's responsibility to be aware he is being overtaken and not make any move that would block the overtaking driver, also in the rules.

 

6.11. RULES OF THE ROAD

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct

A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.

 

Didn't look abrupt to me.   Also the "racing incident" is the lazy and cowardly way out for the steward to get back to their sandwich.

[Peter Olivola]

In the words of the great Arturo Toscanini, "When you'll hold the baton, you'll be in charge."

 

Didn't look abrupt to me.   Also the "racing incident" is the lazy and cowardly way out for the steward to get back to their sandwich.

[Rob Burgoon]

In the words of the great Arturo Toscanini, "When you'll hold the baton, you'll be in charge."

 

Gotta show those sandwiches who's boss.

[Peter Olivola]

I didn't realize how completely ignorant of the SCCA you are, Rob.  It's shrimp, not sandwiches.

 

Gotta show those sandwiches who's boss.

[Tom Sager]

You guys are killing me!
 
 
My take on the entire thing..   We can ALWAYS learn from these accidents especially with the advantage of hindsight. 
 
Despite what most of the internet experts say on Jalopnik , I dont think this accident was Danny's fault. I do think that Leland(I dont know other than what I see in video) was moving, starting to slide even with no more room to correct as/before Danny got there. It is likley we have a similar incident regardless, possibly not quite as severe, but no one knows that answer, I certainly don't.  
 
With the benefit of hindsight, I think if Danny had to do it over again, he follows the T2 car up the left side( which should be faster up the esses, but no idea of driver ability and perhaps why Danny went right?) In Danny's defense, there was a decent size hole and it closed really fast.  IMO, I dont think three wide up the esses works well in any situation, it seems to end in tears more often than not.
If I take anything from this it is: 
1) Always be very aware of faster approaching cars, hold your line,especially when in a mixed class field
2) Not a good idea to go three wide up through the esses unless it is last lap for win at NASA champs.
 
 
Accidents,mistakes and injuries will always be a part of our sport, anything we can do to minimize them is in all of our best interests. I am sure both of these gentleman wished they had a do over here. I and most others on this forum have done FAR worse than either in this video and got away with it. It was a terrible set of circumstances that all came together at the wrong time
 Thanks for posting the video, many may have chose not too. 
Jim

That's a very reasonable and thoughtful post although I'd question 3-wide through there even on a last lap to win opportunity .  

 

Looking at the video you have to wonder what is the purpose of that curbing on the right side that launched the car. 

 

Wishing Leland as speedy a recovery as possible. 

[Tom Scheifler]

Odds don't change by the number of times you roll the dice. If there is a 25% chance of an issue because of poor driving then there is a 25% chance whether I drive once or 100 times. So if we tweak the format to be less racing time then all you did is take away from people racing. IMO limiting how much people race is a poor way to address a problem. Racers want to race. I am proposing that we turn a 25% chance regardless of the number of times you race into a lower percentage chance for all the times you race.

 

I agree with your point and goal, but equating people to dice makes no sense.  People are constantly evaluating and adjusting to the conditions and circumstances.  Dice are not.  It is why dice would have the same chance of each outcome each race regardless of being a regional, major or championship.  And why the chances are likely very different race to race when people are involved.  So it makes sense to look at affecting change to both the format and the people.

[High Chair]

Dannys video on Jalopnik...  Reading the comments were pretty funny.. especially the one that said Leland should be able to kick Danny in the balls  You got to love the internet and all of the experts 

Lets face it.. There has been a time that we have all wanted to kick Danny in the balls.

[Rob Burgoon]

I didn't realize how completely ignorant of the SCCA you are, Rob.  It's shrimp, not sandwiches.

 

Stewards can afford shrimp? 

[Peter Olivola]

Now you're really showing your ignorance.  Who says we pay for it?

 

Stewards can afford shrimp? 

[Duncan]

Todd,

 

Odds don't change by the number of times you roll the dice. If there is a 25% chance of an issue because of poor driving then there is a 25% chance whether I drive once or 100 times. So if we tweak the format to be less racing time then all you did is take away from people racing. IMO limiting how much people race is a poor way to address a problem. Racers want to race. I am proposing that we turn a 25% chance regardless of the number of times you race into a lower percentage chance for all the times you race.

 

While the individual odds for each dice roll aren't dependent on the roll before, the number of rolls of the dice definitely matters when computing a probability of an outcome over the entire set of rolls.

 

> Using the 25% number, we state there's a 75% change that you'll make it through one race without incident.  The chances of making it through three races is .75 x .75 x .75, or a little over 40%.  Not great.

 

> If you assume that qualifying has a lower risk, let's say there's a 90% change of a incident free session, now the chance of making it through three events is .9 * .9 * .75, or a little over 60%.  A definite improvement.  

 

> I think that's what Jim's getting at.  Since the races are more risky than qualifying (I think we can probably agree that's true) the chances of making it through an event with three races and 1 qualifying is less than making it through an event with 3 qualifying's and 1 race.

 

Duncan

[38bfast]

Lead car (Miata) did not take the racing line (hug the inside curb at T2).  This is where the incident started.  My assumption is that he thought he was leaving room for the BMW to go to the inside, but the BMW assumed he could easily pass to the outside (I think that was a fair assumption) if the Miata followed the usual racing line.  With the Miata now in the middle of the track, and the BMW on the left, it looks optimistic to go 3 wide...or to be the 2nd car to pass the Miata, but on the opposite side as the 1st.  That said, the Miata didn't hold its line.

 

I can't give advice on driving fast, but I will (hopefully) never forget my driving school, where we were told to follow the racing line and be predictable when being passed by faster cars/drivers.  Sadly, that didn't happen.

 

We can't allow this to be labeled a  "Racing Incident".  That implies that it wasn't preventable, and was just bad luck.  I disagree.

I agree "Racing Incident" means it was not avoidable. Like a mechanical failure, oil on the track or such. In this case both drivers assume fault. Both put them selfs in a high risk situation that left no room for error. The part that makes it worse is it was in qualifying. All cars involved even if there was no incident had their lap compromised by the traffic. 

 

​This class would double in size if we could get the metal to metal under control. 

[FTodaro]

I do not think its fair to try and find fault with hind sight, Easy to sit back now and say what could have or should have happened.

 

I will say this, the severity  of this crash is a freak event, the car should have stayed on the ground and impacted at about a 45 degree angle. Would have been a big hit but i have taken two similar hits with little consequence.

 

Sad to see, but hard for me to start pointing fingers.