195 replies to this topic

[davew]

We are paying for tech. Many of us don't feel we are getting our money's worth. Let's help out the tech guys and make the process better. Please post solid ideas for tech. Please stay away from the generalised items like "check engines" or the entire dyno debate. Try to stick to minimally invasive items. Nothing that can not be disassembled and inspected within 30 minutes. My max would be flywheel weight as was done at Sprints to 3 cars. maybe 4!

 

here is a start:

 

Sway bar diameter

Spring rating (they check shocks but have never checked springs to my knowledge)

Diff ratios

VIN checks, they have done comparisons of VIN to entry sheet. I have never seen them check VIn to what engine is in the car.

1.6 diff in a 1.8 car

 

What do you have? Maybe the engine builders can pipe in with some easy checks? Jim? Chris? Mike?

 

I would like to see a double blind higher tech. Tech puts numbers in envelopes before the event. #1 qualifier pulls an envelope and signs it.  Then have 5 more invasive tech items in 5 more envelopes. #2 qualifier pulls that envelope. Tech steward opens envelopes after start of race. That finisher gets the extra inspections. Failure to do inspection is loss of comp license for 13 months.

 

Let's get some good ideas out there

Dave

[Mike Collins]

Rifle drilled axles

 

Massaged rear cv joint in axle

 

JDM or AUS intake tubes / Air Boxes

 

Spark Plugs that meet OEM spec

 

Drive Shafts with alternate universal joints

[ner88]

ECU's for tampering or location

[davew]

Great ideas, keep them flowing.

 

Meathead, from GCR;

"Spark plugs and spark plug wires may be substituted".

 

Would this require a definitive rule to define what a factory spec is?

 

Also, would the u-joints be covered by the "normal replacement" suppliers rule. I am too lazy to find it.

 

Also #2, we should define the battery weight and dimension before it becomes an issue.

[chris haldeman]

Mike touched on something I have seen and not said anything about....
Drive shaft u joints
The ones I've seen were replacement style only had a retaining clip on the inner side of the yoke. I question if it is legal or not?

[Bench Racer]

We've been beating this tech thing to death since the beginning. On and off the tech of the day works and doesn't work. 

 

Might we aim ourselves in a more successful direction for tech?

[davew]

Mike touched on something I have seen and not said anything about....
Drive shaft u joints
The ones I've seen were replacement style only had a retaining clip on the inner side of the yoke. I question if it is legal or not?

 

IMHO the u-jpoints should be legal. If they currently are is debatable. From Mazda, the joints are not servicable. The only fix is to replace the entire driveshaft for about $400

 

We've been beating this tech thing to death since the beginning. On and off the tech of the day works and doesn't work. 

 

Might we aim ourselves in a more successful direction for tech?

 

yes we have. just as we have beaten parity to death. But beating it here, and actually submitting a comprehensive plan to the various commitees are 2 different things. I plan to submit a plan with input from the group.

 

If you have a personal "pet peave" post it here and I will add it to the list.

 

Dave

[davew]

I will also add that we have been checked many times for steel driveshaft. Simple magnet on a stick test.

[Bench Racer]

Dave, no pet peeve, really have no dog in this hunt other than car owner. Back in 2009 there was on track GPS data gathered and presented. Maybe steeping forward there is a driveshaft speed/torque measurement system (for discussion forget cost) that would raise a red flag to which cars may require non-invasive or invasive tech (your plan).

 

Whatever, if the consequence for stepping over the line is not sever, stepping over the line will continue.

[Jim Drago]

VVT Intake: 

Porting look for ported and blasted intakes.. not easy to see, but it is obvious if looking at an untouched version

Butterflies verify they are there  make sure they arent thinned and replated same goes for shaft 

 

VVT exhaust manifolds: 

 I have seen the lower flange cut off and welded up about 1/4-3/8 up which increases diameter of output quite a bit and not noticeable unless looking for it.

 

heads:

All that was in head gate and rules rewrite and porting of SS and covering, see this a lot. We created and sent an example to Bauer. 

 

valves: thinned valve stems, thinned heads and back cut valves and then coated to look original.. compare to new OEM 

cams : we need to use cam doctors, we need to check for coated cams, check location and modification of locating pins

cam sprockets: installed correctly on cam, not modified for cam timing

timing belt tensioners, time belt tension bolt modifications

lifter buckets : coatings

 

 

plug OBD scanner in and check water temp and air temp values with the scanner

check fuel more often

 

pull of hubs and pull one apart, check for ceramic balls

 

weigh wheels/tires more often

[davew]

VVT Intake: 

Porting look for ported and blasted intakes.. not easy to see, but it is obvious if looking at an untouched version

Butterflies verify they are there  make sure they arent thinned and replated same goes for shaft 

 

VVT exhaust manifolds: 

 I have seen the lower flange cut off and welded up about 1/4-3/8 up which increases diameter of output quite a bit and not noticeable unless looking for it.

 

heads:

All that was in head gate and rules rewrite and porting of SS and covering, see this a lot. We created and sent an example to Bauer. 

 

valves: thinned valve stems, thinned heads and back cut valves and then coated to look original.. compare to new OEM 

cams : we need to use cam doctors, we need to check for coated cams

lifter buckets : coatings

 

 

plug OBD scanner in and check water temp and air temp values with the scanner

check fuel more often

 

pull of hubs and pull one apart, check for ceramic balls

 

weigh wheels/tires more often

 

 I would assume the OBD scanner must show a varying temp sensor reading. Not a fixed reading that would indicate a resister in the circuit

 

Locally we get fuel sampled all the time. Even at the Regional level.

 

To my thinking, wheel weight would be a good Saturday test. Since Hoosier is still there. I bet they would dismount and remount for free if asked by tech.

 

As you all know, I don't do motors. So getting this info from an expert is important to me.

 

NEXT:

[Mike Collins]

Great ideas, keep them flowing.

 

Meathead, from GCR;

"Spark plugs and spark plug wires may be substituted".

 

Would this require a definitive rule to define what a factory spec is?

 

Also, would the u-joints be covered by the "normal replacement" suppliers rule. I am too lazy to find it.

 

Also #2, we should define the battery weight and dimension before it becomes an issue.

I think it needs to be looked at and it depends how you read the rule.  I've seen spark plugs in a Miata that don't belong in a Miata because of size.... Not because of heat range or the various types of tips... Pretty much guaranteed to pass a whistler with these in the car...

[Jamz14]

Dave, In my very non expert opinion the ECU is the biggest potential to cheat with the most gained. I haven't ever seen a good comprehensive suggestion to cover the ECUs. The past weekend our ECU stickers were checked to ensure they match the model year. But what stops someone from swapping cases and such? I still think that the best way to solve ECUs is to allow ECU relocates that allow easy access and to have a distributed ECU program at the event. There is some cost in doing this and there could be some minor issues with dyno tuning and such. But to worry about U joints while ignoring the ECU doesn't seem right. I don't have the answer but do have a concern.

 

Thanks

[Mike Collins]

Dave, In my very non expert opinion the ECU is the biggest potential to cheat with the most gained. I haven't ever seen a good comprehensive suggestion to cover the ECUs. The past weekend our ECU stickers were checked to ensure they match the model year. But what stops someone from swapping cases and such? I still think that the best way to solve ECUs is to allow ECU relocates that allow easy access and to have a distributed ECU program at the event. There is some cost in doing this and there could be some minor issues with dyno tuning and such. But to worry about U joints while ignoring the ECU doesn't seem right. I don't have the answer but do have a concern.

 

Thanks

Last I checked there were 27 different legal "flashes" for the various ECU's... It depends where your car came from, federal or CA emissions and what part of the country it got tuned for to meet MPG/emissions requirements...  All legal, all OEM Mazda flashes....  I'm not passing my ECU around to anyone until they are sealed and the same.  Spent too much time learning this sh!t to figure out what works best for where I live and race.....

[Jamz14]

Mike, I really appreciate your viewpoint and perspective.

 

So no hope for teching ECUs then? That worries me. If we say there is an area of the car that is too complicated to tech, then I think that will absolutely be the area in which people will look to exploit.

[Dan Spangler]

We've had the alternator function checked at NJMP in the past.  Disconnect throttle cable, start car and check battery voltage.  Have the driver floor the pedal and ensure the voltage stays up.  Supposedly someone in the past had a switch that disconnected the alternator feed when at WOT for a little advantage in parasitic loss.  

 

 

I think it needs to be looked at and it depends how you read the rule.  I've seen spark plugs in a Miata that don't belong in a Miata because of size.... Not because of heat range or the various types of tips... Pretty much guaranteed to pass a whistler with these in the car...

 

How does a spark plug relate to passing the whistle?  Plug is removed for the test.  

[davew]

I have heard ECU's are being programed electronicly. If that is the case, it would be virtually impossible to tech. Unless we want to add an electronic tell tale in the program and we all had our ecu's reflashed to the spec program. Doubt that would fly with the powers to be. And eventually some one would hack it anyways. I am becoming an expert on hacked computers 

 

I agree with relocation being non compliant. That would require a modified wire harness which is specificly disallowed.

[davew]

We have had alternator output checked, but never the WOT test. Good idea

 

NEXT:

[Jim Drago]

Computers.. 

The 96-7 and 01-05 computers are almost perfect from Mazda. The gains if any would be extremely minimal. I think we are worrying about magic dust and things we dont really understand. Anything is possible, but the gains here are not what people are imagining. Not even close. IMO, you would be HARD pressed to get 1/1 better over the factory unit. 

 

The 99/00 computers I have seen done are no better than fuel pressure and timing.. The ONLY gain is if a flat fuel curve. None of teh boxes I have seen offer that. has any one else seen one with a truly flat fuel curve? If we could flatten the fuel curve in this car we would gain no HP but we would gain 2 Ft lbs in tq through the mid range.

 

 

The alternator and WOT deal is a waste..  has anyone tested this on dyno? I have. It is a waste of your time, but checking cant hurt either I suppose, just think they can spend time and money elsewhere that actually mattters

[Danny Steyn]

I agree with relocation being non compliant. That would require a modified wire harness which is specificly disallowed.

 

Dave, according to the guys and Panic that do it to all their cars, you don't need to modify the wire harness - just pull it to the side and mount on the floor. They do it for easy access. As Collins points out above, lots of ECU swapping is happening on the dyno to find the one that works for you.

 

Right now it is against the rules, but if you think about it, it makes sense, not only for our own situation, testing, replacing etc, but it also makes it easier to tech! Not advocating anything, just offering an alternate viewpoint