195 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Paul, as I'm the one who uses that phrase I'll respond. My point is that for many young drivers this is a first step in what they hope will be many in racing. As such it is an early training experience where they learn how race cars work and how basic setup changes impact handling. Driver feedback and understanding of such things is very valuable and even considered by the likes of Mazda and others when evaluating drivers. I'm a few decades beyond being one of those kids but I still prefer to drive a car that responds and drives more like it should. For me it has nothing to do with wanting to make the class faster overall. Indeed, include me among those who wouldn't mind a slower more cost effective tire.

There have been several changes in the past which were done primarily for other reasons but had the bonus of making the cars act more like they should. In a perfect world, sure, I personally would pony up for entirely new shocks, and if needed springs at one or both ends to make these cars behave better. In the ways I've mentioned I think it would be good for the class but that is often the exact opposite of "popular" (think NB suspension for NA). I haven't ever actually proposed it or sent in a letter because I am likely in a very small minority. Next best IMO is to revise the official specs to better define "original" and clamp down on them to remove the perception of yet another have's vs have-nots.

 

Yep.  The swing axles of FV come to mind.  The shocks we have do suck, and I wonder if they were designed for stock class autocross, but it's a losing battle to try to change that at this point.

[Jason J Ball]

Economically speaking, no one in their right mind would spend $200 to re-valve a $105 shock. The specs are overly generous on tolerance and do not include enough range. Correcting these deficiencies will eliminate any need/desire to re-valve. Or, we could just have Bilstein spec new valves for the shocks. They are a wear item that could be grandfathered in, replace at your desired interval. I'm going on 7yrs with my original set, probably go a few more.  

[Jim Drago]

Economically speaking, no one in their right mind would spend $200 to re-valve a $105 shock. The specs are overly generous on tolerance and do not include enough range. Correcting these deficiencies will eliminate any need/desire to re-valve. Or, we could just have Bilstein spec new valves for the shocks. They are a wear item that could be grandfathered in, replace at your desired interval. I'm going on 7yrs with my original set, probably go a few more.  

Or spec and seal for $150 +/- a shock... upgrade at your leisure 

[Alberto]

Economically speaking, no one in their right mind would spend $200 to re-valve a $105 shock. The specs are overly generous on tolerance and do not include enough range. Correcting these deficiencies will eliminate any need/desire to re-valve. Or, we could just have Bilstein spec new valves for the shocks. They are a wear item that could be grandfathered in, replace at your desired interval. I'm going on 7yrs with my original set, probably go a few more.  

 

Why not?  People spend $7k on a pro built motor...

I bought a new set of Bilsteins in my 4th year.  Mostly b/c one died in an off track excursion.  The others were OK.

 

 

Get back to work building my RX7's shocks, Shaikh!  

[Ron Alan]

Granted...when we started 6 years ago I was a little more clueless than i'm now! But everyone said we had to send our shocks to BS to get the SD2...so we followed the crowd! Have no idea what was done...for all I know the 2 months we waited was for nothing different on shocks that were 1.5 years old! To my son they didnt feel any different but I did assume this was legal as it was talked about openly.

 

Again I dont know what was done...but it would seem the cost for this has tripled in a few short years...at $100+ per shock I guess it was a screaming deal??  Now...a few years later I laugh at the thought that the original shocks actually would go bad or "wear" out! Sure...seals can fail but these are designed to go for many 1000's of miles...does the shock know the difference between the highway and a race track as it goes up and down? How many people tow the car on jack stands to avoid putting on the extra miles

 

Lets make this very simple and allow factory untouched shocks...if you feel you got a lemon you are allowed a one time exchange for up to 6 months! BTW...I assume the access to the internals of the shock is through the top cap...can this be sealed somehow?

 

Shaikh obviously didnt know what he was poking at...haha! 

[Bench Racer]

 

Stroke is actually very easy measurement with head and valve cover on car. 

 

[Jim Drago]

 

 

 

Don't know what that means.. Just referencing they can do this extremely easy. I have a stroke checker that I made with a long dial indicator that thereads into Spark plug hole. Dan Tiley outsmarted me and did it on the cheap with a digital caliper that he wedled into a spark plug bung, it was in his tear down video. So for about $25.00 tech can have a very effective tool as well and have something that matters checked.

[Jason J Ball]

Why not?  People spend $7k on a pro built motor...

I bought a new set of Bilsteins in my 4th year.  Mostly b/c one died in an off track excursion.  The others were OK.

 

 

Get back to work building my RX7's shocks, Shaikh!  

Why not? $800 is a set of tires, get more bang for your buck on a new set of rubber vs. spending $800 on re-valved shocks. If money was no object, I'd still spend money on tires vs. shocks all day long.  

[Alberto]

Why not? $800 is a set of tires, get more bang for your buck on a new set of rubber vs. spending $800 on re-valved shocks. If money was no object, I'd still spend money on tires vs. shocks all day long.  

 

While I agree, if you are running at the front and looking for an edge - whether it be a pro motor, a fresh pro motor, a blue printed trans, a blue printed Torsen, hubs with special sauce grease, blue printed cv joints / axles with special sauce grease, etc, the extra $300 is a drop in the bucket...

 

 

Disclaimer - I run the Sealed SM class Regionally and never plan on running a Nationals / Majors race and I'm a cheap bastard and I'm slow so there would probably be no difference in my lap times if I did these 'optimizations'.

[Bench Racer]

Don't know what that means..

Originally posted, who'd have thought (could measure bore with head on), decided the comment wasn't appropriate and  the comment.    

[Jim Drago]

Originally posted, who'd have thought (could measure bore with head on), decided the comment wasn't appropriate and  the comment.    

The bore measurement with Snap guage is a joke and not accurate at all.. Only use IMO is to tell if std or over bore. Even then they were getting it wrong more often than not. I know of at least 3 times they got it wrong.. Once mine they told me i was .001 over and once they told me Crais engine was .010 ver when it wasnt. we came in over that weight anyway, so they let it go.. But we were bout to pull a head. MCspadden had to pull a head to prove it. That is stupidity. 

[Bench Racer]

Originally posted, who'd have thought (could measure bore with head on), decided the comment wasn't appropriate and  the comment.    

 

Shit, I ment to say (could measure stroke with head on).

 

WOW, those without the code could never follow our (my conversation) conversation.

 

Yup on the Dan stroke tool and agree on the bore snap gauge which is a red flag tool at best. I have viewed the snap gauge used at Road Atlanta. 

[av8tor]

Just came from a race shop where I saw an ECU that appeared to be a Mazda factory ECU.  However, it was an AEM ecu inside a factory case.  Even used the factory wiring harness.  It was in a car that does not race SM or even SCCA or NASA, however, the point is, what is to prevent this from happening in SM.  (right now, I think nothing).  The owner also went into great detail about the benefit of resistors to change the readings to a factory ECU and how he used to use a piggy back ECU back in his SM days.  The good cheaters are not wasting their time on compression and heads, they are looking at parts that aren't teched.  

[KW78]

... The owner also went into great detail about the benefit of resistors to change the readings to a factory ECU and how he used to use a piggy back ECU back in his SM days.  The good cheaters are not wasting their time on compression and heads, they are looking at parts that aren't teched.  

 

Exactly.  And its the competitors that know what that is.  Make tech competitor based like solo.  A huge part of the noise will be fixed that way.

 

If JD is right, then make a megasquirt the spec ecm.  They have VVT plug and plays as well.  SIMPLE FIX. ECONOMIC FIX.  Tech can police it with a laptop if needed, people can share the most correct tune.  You could even have a spec tune, but I think that is a bad idea.  

 

What is easier? Which creates a more level playing field?  Having rules that don't let us fix wiring harness issues of a 25+ year old car and a 25+ year old management system, because we fear the resistor and all the effort it takes to reverse engineer the ECM strategy then implement some way to "fool" it, buying a $1k cheater ECM, or just putting a MS in and running their auto tune.  

 

These motors, assuming the mechanical condition is per the rules, only make so much power.  Let the fuel curve be correct at all times, and let the spark map be correct at all times - DONE....

 

The wiring harnesses are plagued with issues!!!!   Fretting is beyond belief.  Ever seen a broken coil bracket?  Well that same high frequency vibration is ruining your harness to the coils, cam sensor, crank sensor and fuel injectors.  These harnesses are work hardened from vibration.  These harnesses are work hardened from heat cycles.  These harnesses have connector plugs that were intended to be actuated only a handful of times.  ON and ON....  

 

Unreliable harness issues, along with the untechable ECM, have caused many people to quit spec miata.  As just one person,  I can think of more than 10.

 

Kyle

 

BTW, the IT classes figured this out.  Any ECM inside a stock box was allowed (quoting the example) in IT for a long time now.   It adds reliability and is cheap, and fixed these same issues... 

[Jim Drago]

Just came from a race shop where I saw an ECU that appeared to be a Mazda factory ECU.  However, it was an AEM ecu inside a factory case.  Even used the factory wiring harness.  It was in a car that does not race SM or even SCCA or NASA, however, the point is, what is to prevent this from happening in SM.  (right now, I think nothing).  The owner also went into great detail about the benefit of resistors to change the readings to a factory ECU and how he used to use a piggy back ECU back in his SM days.  The good cheaters are not wasting their time on compression and heads, they are looking at parts that aren't teched.  

That is a VERY easy catch..  work fine in regionals etc.. All they need to do is pull the computers or protest and that one is done. They do have a resitance box they have been plugging in at majors and it would likely show up there as well. 

[Bench Racer]

I would like to believe that at any SCCA Divisional or Majors the ECU could be pulled from the top five, tested and found legal.

 

All tho Drago with his blinkie may leave some questions.

[Rob Burgoon]

That is a VERY easy catch..  work fine in regionals etc.. All they need to do is pull the computers or protest and that one is done. They do have a resitance box they have been plugging in at majors and it would likely show up there as well. 

 

The AEM in a OEM box might be catchable without too much trouble, but what about the piggy or resistors?

 

 

I like what Kyle is saying about ECUs.  I dunno about you guys but I always feel a little ill at seeing how lean my engine goes at 4k when tuned for 6k.

[FTodaro]

They need to perfect the lie detector technology so that we can just drive our cars into tech on the scales they hook you up and ask, "are you a cheater" because there are so many ways that the motivated can cheat. The ecu in an ecu i would never even think of.

[Erik Hardy]

I just laugh, sometimes I even point and laugh at it, flappy door problems. 15-16:1 is pretty typical down in that rpm range for me...ain't scared. Its a good thing these engines don't make any real power.

 

yall are batshit crazy if you think aftermarket ecu's are a better and easier to tech than an oem designed/manufactured ECU.

 

I dunno about you guys but I always feel a little ill at seeing how lean my engine goes at 4k when tuned for 6k.

[Jamz14]

Could tech and should tech are much different than is teched. And I don't know why the discussion on proper tech is limited to majors and somehow regional racing doesn't deserve to know that we are competing on a level playing field. I understand that we don't want crazy tear down tech at the regional level. But things like ECUs that absolutely can provide a significant advantage should be able to be easily teched. I understand that the late model cars have matched keys to the ecu, but there has to be a solution to this. It isn't like other late model cars aren't racing with aftermarket ECUs.

 

I am quite baffled as to why alot of people seem to be opposed to some system of teching the ECU. I don't buy that the issue is money. At least not from the top competitors that spend small fortunes on the dyno to A/B testing minor components for minuscule advantages. Speedengineer is railed as naive for attempting to build a sub 15K car but somehow it is counter to the class culture to allow AM ECUs and harnesses?

 

I don't know, maybe the fear is of this being a slippery slope. But left on our own to explain why teching the ECU is unachievable in a relatively easy way; what reason to explain resistance do you think people are going to come up with?

 

Lance Armstrong is an asshole and a liar, but he was not a cheater. I am beginning to believe that what we need is our version of an Armstrong to hang on a cross. A sacrificial lamb used to better the class as a whole. However I'd prefer that we address it before the lamb is crucified. Of course this premise assumes that some people today are in fact messing with the ECU. Maybe that assumption is wrong. But knowing the ingenuity of racers and knowing that cheating has a demonstrable history in all classes, don't you think we deserve a rational explanation as to why ECU cheating isn't happening today? All I am asking for is reasonable assurance that me playing by the rules today does not have me at a  significant disadvantage. Not asking for a guarantee, just a reasonable assurance. Why should I believe that it isn't happening?