195 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

AW33com, F*ck that idea of taking my car away. My car belongs to me, not to the SCCA or NASA. You can ban me from your sandbox but you can't take my stick away and I will beat you over the head if you try.

[Bench Racer]

Does anyone think/believe THE company would allow aftermarket ECU's?

[Jim Drago]

Does anyone think/believe THE company would allow aftermarket ECU's?

no way

[Richard Astacio]

AW33com, F*ck that idea of taking my car away. My car belongs to me, not to the SCCA or NASA. You can ban me from your sandbox but you can't take my stick away and I will beat you over the head if you try.

[sentercut]

Wow, as most of the threads/topics on here this is eye opening. I know next to nothing about all of this, and am fat and slow. But it seems (perspective of a fat slow rookie SM driver) that the fast guys have not been tested by the "cheaters" in any big races or highly attended events. Or at least they (cheaters) can not cheat enough to make much of a difference to get onto the podium. It seems that most all of the guys/gals that are on the podium are the ones that are really representing the class as the bar for the best driving. To me (fat old slow poke) it stands to reason from what i have seen that if and when a cheater rolls in and is discovered they will be run off, no? 

 

One of the main things that is enjoyable about this class is that it is about the driver and not the car...for the most part. I think that I could probably put most of you top 10 guys in my beater and you would still find a way to finish in the top ten. I love that, and maybe i am really naive. 

 

Any one that wants to win so bad that he cheats is a loser, and there is no changing that except to run them off via penalties/shame etc. Over all in my first year here I have not seen any of that, but then again, i am not in the business, top of the class, know what to look for,or race many events annually. 

 

The paid SCCA and NASA representatives should spend hours on this forum, take notes and grow a pair and make decisive decisions on probation, points, whatever. Most problems will get worked out, but there must be movement (probation, points, etc..) in order for their to be progress. 

[KW78]

Allowing aftermarket ECUs would likely widen the gap between the front runners and the rest, and at best widen the perception of a gap. Speedengineer already mentioned how many different little tweaks are possible, the the later the cars the more of those there are. People with unlimited $$ or unlimited dyno time will probably end up with a bigger advantage over Joe-average who feels compelled to install one but can't do better than run whatever tune he's given. There will be constant debate about the best tune, different tunes for different tracks, retuning when the weather changes because the climate trims are never perfect and auto-tune even less so.

It would simplify my life, I even have a brand new MS on the shelf and all the dyno time I want, but I'm not convinced that it will improve the class.

 

This is simply not true in my view. Speedengineer mused at tweaks to get around the stock ecm strategies - all fall by the wayside with an easy to program ECU.

 

Please understand everyone, I am not saying "allow aftermarket ECU's".  I don't think MOTEC or HALTEC should be in SM.  

 

I am saying spec a SPECIFIC AFTERMARKET ECM!  Big Difference!!

 

Megasquirt is simple and cheap, and have a miata specific line of products. (and starting maps to fwiw).

 

Joe average can spend $79 on EFI analytics (it really is top notch) and autotune his car from his phone live during a friday test session,  to perform at least as good as a stock ecu, in the conditions we race in - IE full throttle mostly on good weather days.  All the magic in street tuning is making your car start on a zero degree day, warm up idle good and then drive away instantly - as one example.  Or all the magic is dealing with fuel, compression, cam, boost combos - again that doesn't matter to SM.

 

My ITA/PTE/WRL Na1.8 car runs a 10 year old megasquirt - it has a FLAT fuel curve, GOOD timing curve, gets GOOD race mileage for enduros, runs COOLER, doesn't see lean at lower RPMs, Doesn't see gross rich at high RPMs, Doesn't use oil at high RPMs,  and most importanly has a SOFT rev limiter that doesn't knock out the #3 rod....

 

Simple ECM and tamper proof Rev limiter - ala circletrack or transam has used forever

 

 

no way

 

 

 

 

THIS,unfortunately in my view, is probably accurate...

 

Kyle

 

Edit:  

 

And again, this isn't for the sake of that extra 1/1 JD says is possible...  This is so joe midpack can feel like he has the same technology in his car as Joe Nat champ ---  and that tech can evaluate the situation accurately as needed....  Also, now Joe midpack can learn from Joe nat champ by swapping a tune file to show that this and that does/does not matter....   That is the real gain that much of the class would participate in...

[Jim Drago]

 

And again, this isn't for the sake of that extra 1/1 JD says is possible...  This is so joe midpack can feel like he has the same technology in his car as Joe Nat champ ---  and that tech can evaluate the situation accurately as needed....  Also, now Joe midpack can learn from Joe nat champ by swapping a tune file to show that this and that does/does not matter....   That is the real gain that much of the class would participate in...

 

What happens when I have a tune I develop and sell for "X" then Haldeman says my tune is better than Dragos tune and I'll sell it for Y? Then Wheeler and Stewart team up with a megasquirt guru and their tune is now the one to have for Z.. Then Tiley comes back from Ford Performance with the new super bad ass tune for XX? We have now spent a good chunk of change and probably gained nothing.. but was a "must have " at the time?  Thats where we are now, the gains above what we have are more could be, then really are.  People will always think their is some magic dust and special grease

[Steve Scheifler]

You didn't quite get my point, which is that "more knobs to turn" is not a good thing for joe-average. I referenced what speedengineer mentioned as a shortcut to say that a standalone ECU requires more fine tuning than they have now. It doesn't "go away", it multiplies.

I know full well about ECUs, I've had an AEM in a steet car for at least a decade and tuned on various others. Yes, a race tune is easy compared to street drivability (although it better start on that bitter cold morning and smoking hot afternoon). But my point is that it opens up a whole new level of R&D where the average guy gets left behind. The real difference would be small but the perception maybe not. And if you think joe average is doing his own live tuning, are you kidding??

[Steve Scheifler]

Continued...
Sure, some guys will swap files around, spend time at the dyno, and tinker at the track. A significant number won't bother at all, too much $$ and not something they would attempt on their own. Some of those guys won't care either way but some will feel even more separated from the class. And some will blow their engines up and wonder if it was the ECU tune.

I'd love it, but I'd bet against it getting a majority in a vote of all current drivers, and I understand that.

Edit: I missed Jim's post above while posting these, but yes, what he said.

[Panic Motorsports]

Dave, according to the guys and Panic that do it to all their cars, you don't need to modify the wire harness - just pull it to the side and mount on the floor. They do it for easy access. As Collins points out above, lots of ECU swapping is happening on the dyno to find the one that works for you.

 

Right now it is against the rules, but if you think about it, it makes sense, not only for our own situation, testing, replacing etc, but it also makes it easier to tech! Not advocating anything, just offering an alternate viewpoint

 

I don't frequent this forum anymore for several reasons (as evidenced by being two weeks late to the party I was being named at), but dropped in to see what you guys are up to. The ECU relocation we do is only on the VVT cars because a) we run a lot of enduro stuff and should a swap be required, it's easier for my fat ass to reach, it's easier for my fat ass to reach on the dyno if we're swapping a couple of boxes in and out testing, and c) we probably have/had more VVT cars than anybody. You can't relocate on the 99-00 without a harness mod because of the way the 99-00 car harness brings power to the ECU, whereas the VVT cars are powered in the ECU harness itself, so it's just a matter of pulling the ECU and harness over to the passenger side of the tunnel. The VVT cars aren't plagued as hard by the 99-00 harness failures, but bringing the ECU over to the passenger floor makes any necessary harness swaps easier. No black magic, no shifty ECU tricks, just basically being lazy. All that said, we got fix-it write ups in all our VVT logbooks for this "infraction" at Watkins Glen. Guess I gotta get up under a couple of dashboards to keep the keystone kops happy. Back to your shock discussion........

[Rob Burgoon]

What happens when I have a tune I develop and sell for "X" then Haldeman says my tune is better than Dragos tune and I'll sell it for Y? Then Wheeler and Stewart team up with a megasquirt guru and their tune is now the one to have for Z.. Then Tiley comes back from Ford Performance with the new super bad ass tune for XX? We have now spent a good chunk of change and probably gained nothing.. but was a "must have " at the time?  Thats where we are now, the gains above what we have are more could be, then really are.  People will always think their is some magic dust and special grease

 

Well duh, we pirate the shit out of it.  Enjoy the tune selling business

[Mark]

The only way a spec ecu works is with a spec tune. Anything else and we are back to escalating warfare and costs. The tune would have to be administered by the SCCA (or NASA)  just like they do with SRF. Lock the tune down with a digital signature and be done with it. Easy for tech to check. If the signature doesn't match - you are done. I am not sure if the Megasquirt has the digital signature/lockdown capability but the AEM Infinity does. The 3 Series ecu is rumored to be under 1k when it ships. While we're at it provide a milspec standalone ECU harness to solve the wiring harness failures and eliminate (for the most part) hiding things in the wiring. There is some precedence in the SCCA for this type of thing as AEM does some of this already for the TA2 class. 

 

Ehhh... nvm. This will never happen. Lets talk about shocks again. That was more fun.

[Steve Scheifler]

Mega squirt does not have a locking option and they have responded negatively in the past when asked if they were interested in offering one for a spec class.

[davew]

The new Global MX5 Cup uses a stand alone, aftermarket ECU. It is sealed both mechanically and electronicly. They have sold 102 cars over the past 6 months. And they are all identicle. Trying impliment a program into SM would require thousands of units in at least 6 different configurations (1.6, early 1.8NA, OBDII Na 1.8, that oddball very late 1.8 1996, 99-00, VVT).

 

LOOK< there is another flying pink unicorn

[Sean - MiataCage]

Mega squirt does not have a locking option and they have responded negatively in the past when asked if they were interested in offering one for a spec class.

 

I find it very hard to believe that any company would turn down the opportunity for 2000 to 3000 units to be sold.  Maybe it wasn't presented properly, maybe it wasn't to the right person who knows, but I sincerely believe with the type of numbers we have, they or someone else with a similar product offering would be interested.   Sounds like maybe AEM is already working with SCCA anyway.

 

While I really like this idea especially as we look into the future and how if at all the NC cars come into play, anytime we suggest/require the competitor to consider spending this amount of money to update their car we are going to get a huge amount of push back.  Personally, I think anything that will make the class better/closer or eliminate cheat areas and costs less that (1) set of tires is a no brainer.  I do not know enough about this topic at this time to say that this is beneficial and the right move, but on the surface it sure makes some long term sense.  

 

Sean

[AJ Roderick]

AEM sponsors the TA2 class now and it still costs each car roughly 4 grand to switch over to the AEM system from what I have heard.

[Jamz14]

So it looks like it comes down to one of two solutions for ECUs:

 

1. Flying pink unicorns.......or

2. Shrink our balls and grow our conscience

[Bench Racer]

So it looks like it comes down to one of two solutions for ECUs:

 

1. Flying pink unicorns.......or

2. Shrink our balls and grow our conscience

 

Because THE company sells ECU's.

[Steve Scheifler]

Even at the low-end of the market (cost wise) I would be surprised if they sold 500 units the first year let alone 2-3k. Not that 500 is insignificant but let's not overstate the potential by too much. My guess would be roughly the number of distinct cars that have participated in Majors this year.

[Jamz14]

Because THE company sells ECU's.

I understand why THE company doesn't want AM ECus Bench. That isn't really the question. The question is what are we going to do about tech for THE companies ECUs if it is a known fact that they are being cheated?

 

On a side note: THE company already sold the ECU and isn't making any more money on the ECUs. They sold it when they sold the car new. So there aren't additional sales to THE company by imposing stock ECU rule.