195 replies to this topic

[davew]

I will say without hesitation that cheated ecu's are out there in SM. So are piggybacks and so are resistors. Some I have tried, some I have found.

 

JAMZ14 wrote "However I'd prefer that we address it before the lamb is crucified."

 

Glad you used lower case lamb   

[speedengineer]

I believe illegal ECU tweaking is a problem currently in the class, I know that there are tons of these things out there.  I don't buy the argument that "it doesn't matter because the gains are so small."  I'm not sure what is currently being altered on the reprogrammed ECU's out there, but I have a background in combustion development and engine dynamometer testing/calibration with a major OEM, and in less than 5 minutes thought of 13 calibration changes that I would make or evaluate on the dyno to inprove power or the ability to maintain consistent power on a spec miata.  Some of these calibrations would make a very measurable improvement.  

Reprogrammed ECU's are currently NOT techable, or so I am told.  People have and will continue to run them.  That puts the rest of us in the SM community in a crappy position:  Either suffer a slight performance deficit to the cheaters, or become a cheater yourself.  That is a pretty BS decision to have to make, and in Spec Miata, we should not have to do that.  

SM history (correct me if I'm wrong) - Back in the day when ECU cheating first came up, cars were granted adjustable timing and fuel pressure regulators.  These adjustments mitigated much of the benefit of the cheater ECU's.  In other words, a rules allowance was made to eliminate a loophole that wasn't techable!  Just like how offset camber bushings were made legal to negate the benefit of running cheated up bent knuckles.  The same process might work again for our current situation.  Assuming no reliable method to check for reprogrammed ecu's is found:

Idea 1:
Make reprogrammed OEM ECU's legal.  For the cost of a set of tires or less, everyone can have one.  Problems...stuff like rev limit cal?  Availability?  Maybe get Enterprises involved to make a spec cal?  Dunno.

Idea 2:  
Perhaps SCCA Enterprises could find a way to permanently seal an unodified stock ECU with its ability to be reprogrammed disabled.  Not sure if 'permanent' and 'unreproducable' are possible.

Idea 3:  
Make aftermarket ECU's legal.  No, it doesn't have to cost much.  On a budget, get a megasquirt.  Once somebody developes a quality base cal, they'll likely give it to their buddies, or sell it for low cost.  We could even task mazda, scca, or some other entity to develop optimized cals for each year car and make them publicly available.  Plus, owners will save money on new car builds as they won't have to purchase a $400 fuel pressure regulator setup and $35 timing wheel.  Don't like megasquirt, feel free to spend more and purchase and tune using your favorte ECU.  We would still have problems with how do you hadle rev limit.  If it were open, then you know people are going to spin them to 7800....then blowing up $6k motors becomes a every other weekend cost.  

Idea 4:  
An aftermarket ECU is specified, and it has the ability to lock down the calibration so it can not be modified, but it can be read with a laptop to check for compliance.  Enterprises creates the calibration, flashes the ECU's, locks them, and ships them.


I'm out of ideas.  That said, this isn't an issue that should just be swept under the rug, leaving us honest racers at a disadvantage. 

[Rob Burgoon]

What's the downside of an open ECU, other than cost to buy and cost to tune?  If you tune your fuel and timing for max power from 4k to 7k, are you playing chicken with detonation and melting things?  Or is it just getting your fuel curve to stay around high 12s and low 13s and adjusting timing so the curve goes as high as possible at each cell?

[Jim Drago]

I believe illegal ECU tweaking is a problem currently in the class, I know that there are tons of these things out there.  I don't buy the argument that "it doesn't matter because the gains are so small."  I'm not sure what is currently being altered on the reprogrammed ECU's out there, but I have a background in combustion development and engine dynamometer testing/calibration with a major OEM, and in less than 5 minutes thought of 13 calibration changes that I would make or evaluate on the dyno to inprove power or the ability to maintain consistent power on a spec miata.  Some of these calibrations would make a very measurable improvement.  

Reprogrammed ECU's are currently NOT techable, or so I am told.  People have and will continue to run them.  That puts the rest of us in the SM community in a crappy position:  Either suffer a slight performance deficit to the cheaters, or become a cheater yourself.  That is a pretty BS decision to have to make, and in Spec Miata, we should not have to do that.  

SM history (correct me if I'm wrong) - Back in the day when ECU cheating first came up, cars were granted adjustable timing and fuel pressure regulators.  These adjustments mitigated much of the benefit of the cheater ECU's.  In other words, a rules allowance was made to eliminate a loophole that wasn't techable!  Just like how offset camber bushings were made legal to negate the benefit of running cheated up bent knuckles.  The same process might work again for our current situation.  Assuming no reliable method to check for reprogrammed ecu's is found:

Idea 1:
Make reprogrammed OEM ECU's legal.  For the cost of a set of tires or less, everyone can have one.  Problems...stuff like rev limit cal?  Availability?  Maybe get Enterprises involved to make a spec cal?  Dunno.

Idea 2:  
Perhaps SCCA Enterprises could find a way to permanently seal an unodified stock ECU with its ability to be reprogrammed disabled.  Not sure if 'permanent' and 'unreproducable' are possible.

Idea 3:  
Make aftermarket ECU's legal.  No, it doesn't have to cost much.  On a budget, get a megasquirt.  Once somebody developes a quality base cal, they'll likely give it to their buddies, or sell it for low cost.  We could even task mazda, scca, or some other entity to develop optimized cals for each year car and make them publicly available.  Plus, owners will save money on new car builds as they won't have to purchase a $400 fuel pressure regulator setup and $35 timing wheel.  Don't like megasquirt, feel free to spend more and purchase and tune using your favorte ECU.  We would still have problems with how do you hadle rev limit.  If it were open, then you know people are going to spin them to 7800....then blowing up $6k motors becomes a every other weekend cost.  

Idea 4:  
An aftermarket ECU is specified, and it has the ability to lock down the calibration so it can not be modified, but it can be read with a laptop to check for compliance.  Enterprises creates the calibration, flashes the ECU's, locks them, and ships them.


I'm out of ideas.  That said, this isn't an issue that should just be swept under the rug, leaving us honest racers at a disadvantage. 

If someone can show me a reprogrammed Mazda ECU that is truly worth 1/1 over stock with fuel Adjustable reg and timing, I would agree with one of these options.. I have yet to see one even be better than I can achieve without. Maybe there is better stuff out there, but I havent seen it, hear a lot of "claims" and will test for free if you like.

[Jim Drago]

What's the downside of an open ECU, other than cost to buy and cost to tune?  If you tune your fuel and timing for max power from 4k to 7k, are you playing chicken with detonation and melting things?  Or is it just getting your fuel curve to stay around high 12s and low 13s and adjusting timing so the curve goes as high as possible at each cell?

for me none.. for the average guy without a dyno.. it can and will get expensive.  I'm sure people will sell tunes or spec them..  But even if speced.. Unless it is best possible tune.. It can be reprogrammed far easier than factory ECU which is the same issues of 1/1 gains under the curve etc.. 

Just no need IMO

[davew]

My bank account would love it. 40 cars, 40 ecus, 40 tunes. WOW$$$$$$

 

Personally I would be against it on principle. This is one time where I would say "against class phylosophy, Thank you for you input"

[speedengineer]

If someone can show me a reprogrammed Mazda ECU that is truly worth 1/1 over stock with fuel Adjustable reg and timing, I would agree with one of these options.. I have yet to see one even be better than I can achieve without. Maybe there is better stuff out there, but I havent seen it, hear a lot of "claims" and will test for free if you like.

Yeah, I've no idea what modifications are currently being done in these boxes, but here are a few thoughts:

 

- VICS switch point on a 99.  The butterflies flip position on a 99 at 5300 RPM, which is several hundred RPM too early for best power.  This causes the car to have an instantaneous ~2hp drop at 5300 RPM, slowly recovering back to optimal over the next several hundred RPM.  Definite performance gain there.  I see lots of 99 dyno traces that don't have this RPM dip at 5300...

 

- Bump the rev limit by 50 rpm, nobody is going to notice.  Will slightly increase the average hp within the curve used between shifts.

 

- Well known issues of tuning AFR for peak power vs midrange power on a 99.  This issues could be easily fixed with a cheater ECU

 

- I highly doubt the stock VVT cam timing curve is fully optimized for spec miatas.  Haven't tried it, but I would expect gains here.  Could easily shift hp curve around in the rpm range, different ECU's for different race tracks.

 

- Perhaps a slight gain in optimizing spark timing at every RPM as opposed to compromising.  To Rob's question, this could be more reliable than a stock ECU, you're not over advancing timing at some locations in order to achieve sufficient timing at other locations.  Not sure the stock map needs too much improvement though.

 

- Remove any fuel and spark trims due to out of range (running hot, etc) coolant or intake air temp sensor readings

 

- Disable knock sensor and any potential effect on ign timing. 

 

- I will not post the remaining several ideas I had in case they haven't been found yet.  I found 2+ hp playing with one of these on my PTE car with a megasquirt over their miata base map.

[Rob Burgoon]

My bank account would love it. 40 cars, 40 ecus, 40 tunes. WOW$$$$$$

 

Personally I would be against it on principle. This is one time where I would say "against class phylosophy, Thank you for you input"

 

The rebuttal might be "no to rules you can't effectively enforce".

[Jim Drago]

 

 

- VICS switch point on a 99.  The butterflies flip position on a 99 at 5300 RPM, which is several hundred RPM too early for best power.  This causes the car to have an instantaneous ~2hp drop at 5300 RPM, slowly recovering back to optimal over the next several hundred RPM.  Definite performance gain there.  I see lots of 99 dyno traces that don't have this RPM dip at 5300...

 

 

The ones I see like that wish they had the drop as they have no tq and no idea the doors arent working

[Jamz14]

My bank account would love it. 40 cars, 40 ecus, 40 tunes. WOW$$$$$$

 

Personally I would be against it on principle. This is one time where I would say "against class phylosophy, Thank you for you input"

Dave, you state emphatically that people are messing with the ECU. You state that you disagree with allowing AM ECUs. That would seem to leave as a reasonable position an idea on how we can reliably tech the stock ECUs. I am all ears!!!!

[Jim Drago]

Dave, you state emphatically that people are messing with the ECU. You state that you disagree with allowing AM ECUs. That would seem to leave as a reasonable position an idea on how we can reliably tech the stock ECUs. I am all ears!!!!

We can do this easily...  

 

Runoffs...

SCCA has multiple boxes already.... I would supply an additional 5-10 at no charge if needed, all tested... (I have as many as needed) or I am sure Mazda would supply.

Seal them and hand them out.. 

 

 

Normal weekend...

seal ecu.. 

Send ECU to a certified shop.. A non Sm shop... dyno and check timing advance and fuel curves and any obvious board modification.. go/no go..

 

We have already done this in the past.. they are techable...

Jim

[davew]

Very easy to install an RPM sensor and wire into the VICS circuit. Only gain is about 1 horse between 5300 and 5600 rpm

 

Not noticable on the track, but it does smooth out the dyno curve. Very important if you are racing dyno sheets.

 

 

Dave, you state emphatically that people are messing with the ECU. You state that you disagree with allowing AM ECUs. That would seem to leave as a reasonable position an idea on how we can reliably tech the stock ECUs. I am all ears!!!!

 

I wish everyone would grow a concience that is bigger than their testicles and leave well enough alone. If everyone just followed the rule which says you can not do it, this would be a mute point. Just because you can get away with it, does not make it right.

 

I know the name and phone number of 2 people who are modifying stock ECU's. I will not disclose their company names. I have found ECU's that have VASTLY different curves than any stock SM I have found that have come from other builders. I have found piggyback units. I have found resistors.

[KW78]

Last I checked there were 27 different legal "flashes" for the various ECU's... It depends where your car came from, federal or CA emissions and what part of the country it got tuned for to meet MPG/emissions requirements...  All legal, all OEM Mazda flashes....  I'm not passing my ECU around to anyone until they are sealed and the same.  Spent too much time learning this sh!t to figure out what works best for where I live and race.....

 

 

for me none.. for the average guy without a dyno.. it can and will get expensive.  I'm sure people will sell tunes or spec them..  But even if speced.. Unless it is best possible tune.. It can be reprogrammed far easier than factory ECU which is the same issues of 1/1 gains under the curve etc.. 

Just no need IMO

 

 

My bank account would love it. 40 cars, 40 ecus, 40 tunes. WOW$$$$$$

 

Personally I would be against it on principle. This is one time where I would say "against class phylosophy, Thank you for you input"

 

27 different legal flashes= 27 different legal starting points with different MAF, plug heat ranges, timing settings, fuel psi settings... that is $$$WOW to optimize...  

 

Spec a single open source ecu.  Megasquirt gets my vote.  Reliable, quality, and in extensive use.  Open source, easy tech.

 

Worse case, allow megasquirt (vs. require it) and then elaborate mazda R&D works and the megasquirt works.

 

Tuning a tunable ECM is much cheaper than tuning an "untunable" combination of parts.  That is happening now!  I know, I provide that for my customers.   Those who don't go after that last 1% still won't have to, and those that do now will find it is easier and cheaper.   

 

All ECM rules, including current ones, should require a piggy back, under hood, SPEC msd rev chip wired and mounted in a spec way.  Tech should have a jimstim to verify rev limits.  (could do that now as well!)  

 

Simple reliable alteration to make race cars race cars.  Transparent.  

 

We need to work here with the laws of physics.   Once the best afr and spark timing is allowed, no other black art settings will be better.

 

Kyle

[davew]

I forgot to add. NONE of the improper electronics have been from cars of people who frequent this forum.

[Rob Burgoon]

We can do this easily...  

 

Runoffs...

SCCA has multiple boxes already.... I would supply and additional 5-10 at no charge if needed, all tested... (I have as many as needed) or I am sure mazda would supply.

Seal them and hand them out.. 

 

 

Normal weekend...

seal ecu.. 

Send ECU to a certified shop.. A non Sm shop... dyno and check timing advance and fuel curves and any obvious board modification.. go/no go..

 

We have already done this in the past.. they are techable...

Jim

 

Pretty good, but you can't stop the pig with either of those.

[Jim Drago]

Pretty good, but you can't stop the pig with either of those.

You cant stop ANYONE from cheating if that is what you want to do, period!  That works on 99.5% and what ever you propose wont work on the other .5 % either, they will just look elsewhere

[Steve Scheifler]

Allowing aftermarket ECUs would likely widen the gap between the front runners and the rest, and at best widen the perception of a gap. Speedengineer already mentioned how many different little tweaks are possible, the the later the cars the more of those there are. People with unlimited $$ or unlimited dyno time will probably end up with a bigger advantage over Joe-average who feels compelled to install one but can't do better than run whatever tune he's given. There will be constant debate about the best tune, different tunes for different tracks, retuning when the weather changes because the climate trims are never perfect and auto-tune even less so.

It would simplify my life, I even have a brand new MS on the shelf and all the dyno time I want, but I'm not convinced that it will improve the class.

[Rob Burgoon]

You cant stop ANYONE from cheating if that is what you want to do, period!  That works on 99.5% and what ever you propose wont work on the other .05 % either, they will just look elsewhere

 

Well, you can stop all engine management cheats with an open ecu since engine management tweaks are legal at that point.  But I agree, rpm limiter is a big question if you go there.

 

I'm just sitting here looking at my AFPR and thinking things could be better.

[AW33COM]

You know why there was, is, and will be cheating in motorsports?  Because there are no real consequences for cheating.

The best way to eliminate cheating would be using panopticon effect.  Drivers self police their own cars.  How do they do it?

 

Simple.  If caught cheating:

 

1.  Take the car away, sell on auction, proceeds from the sale go to tech traveling team. (no need for tech at every event, just random pop in here and there).

2.  Lifetime ban from the racing organization.

* Engine builder responsible for the engine.  If caught, the engine is sold of, and on top of that the engine builder pays the fee (original engine price)

 

As a driver/engine builder I would agree, and I would not even blink enforcing it. 

I'm pretty sure 80% of the drivers in SM don't have the balls to do it. 

[Jamz14]

Very easy to install an RPM sensor and wire into the VICS circuit. Only gain is about 1 horse between 5300 and 5600 rpm

 

Not noticable on the track, but it does smooth out the dyno curve. Very important if you are racing dyno sheets.

 

 

 

I wish everyone would grow a concience that is bigger than their testicles and leave well enough alone. If everyone just followed the rule which says you can not do it, this would be a mute point. Just because you can get away with it, does not make it right.

 

I know the name and phone number of 2 people who are modifying stock ECU's. I will not disclose their company names. I have found ECU's that have VASTLY different curves than any stock SM I have found that have come from other builders. I have found piggyback units. I have found resistors.

Dave,

 

I am so confused now. I feel like what you are saying is that the solution is to wish that everyone plays nice. If that were the case then why even have a tech item topic discussion? Lets just all play nice together and we can get rid of tech at the events and get rid of scales at the events, ETC.

 

Jim, I have multiple times suggested an ECU program where known ECUs were distributed at the race. I heard multiple push backs on that but the latest push back was that the late model cars have keys and security systems tied to the ECU. So as I said above, I am completely confused as to what they position is from you and Dave. I am not trying to be a pain in the ass. I am really confused as I have suggested almost identically what you just suggested, I THINK, and I got nothing but reasons on why we couldn't do it. Including the reason of that guys didn't want to be plugging and unplugging ECUs into old harnesses for fear of damaging the pins. I then suggested a pigtail for this purpose and that was shot down.

 

So what is it you guys are suggesting when it comes to ECUs?