195 replies to this topic

[KW78]

What happens when I have a tune I develop and sell for "X" then Haldeman says my tune is better than Dragos tune and I'll sell it for Y? Then Wheeler and Stewart team up with a megasquirt guru and their tune is now the one to have for Z.. Then Tiley comes back from Ford Performance with the new super bad ass tune for XX? We have now spent a good chunk of change and probably gained nothing.. but was a "must have " at the time?  Thats where we are now, the gains above what we have are more could be, then really are.  People will always think their is some magic dust and special grease

 

This situation happens now whether it is a valve job, motor, or FPR..  Same Same...  And, people will always think there is magic dust.  It will just be cheap and easy to do, to tech, and to get.... if you so desire.  Again, this isn't about the results of the tune, its about getting the magic tech shed legal boxes out of the system.

 

 

The only way a spec ecu works is with a spec tune. Anything else and we are back to escalating warfare and costs. .....

 

Ehhh... nvm. This will never happen. Lets talk about shocks again. That was more fun.

 

This is simply not true!  The escalating warfare costs are happening NOW with a manual swap-o-rama tuning process. 27 legal tunes now for the ecm.  Drago has posted before that he can go to his yard and try 10 mafs, 10 ecus, and wiring harnesses...  All legal and good prep, but you can't tell me Joe Midpack feels more connected to the group hes racing against with this option, over having a MSPNP that he can decide to mess with after comparing a timing setting with his buddy who is faster down the straight, (and probably finding it didn't matter - it was exit speed).  SO I AGAIN Say, a spec megasquirt is a solution to the tech issues brought out in this thread.  It is a solution in part to people traveling to the runoffs and feeling like they got a fair race after tech doesn't address whatever Joe Midpack particular issue is.  There will be many issues, but eliminating the ECU sentiments from this discussion will go along way for alot of serious racers and help the competition.

 

You didn't quite get my point, which is that "more knobs to turn" is not a good thing for joe-average.....

 

 And if you think joe average is doing his own live tuning, are you kidding??

 

Steve, a new spec ECU is NOT introducing more knobs for Joe average to turn -  Those knobs are available NOW and being turned, many thru hard work and legal sweat.  A few years ago I have taken a box of parts for a 99 SM customer to the dyno and ran 78 runs (on a new Drago motor BTW) and got his car a 4 hp gain.  It is just so hard to do compared to an open ECM for Joe average.  And THEN, the tech process for illegal boxes is another WIN WIN deal with this.  And THEN the tech process for magic wiring harness resistors and hidden switches, and insulated knock sensors is another WIN WIN also.

 

And no offense to any drifter lurkers here, but if a broke d!ck kid that uses an air chisel for fender clearance can get a MS working for him, so can any of us - pro mechanic or not.  It is the point of the open source culture that developed MS.  The tools developed for the end user literally make it pretty damn simple.

 

Something everyone not a pro mechanic should understand that may be reading this, is that there is not much magic in a tune.  All these great tunes on a ford mustang or an mx-5 cup car are finding significant gains because their baseline is the mass produced vehicle that has 20% (to pick a number) left in it and tons of tweaks to pass the federal emissions program when sold.  They have to run clean stone cold, overheated, and sitting still.  On and On.

 

Also, the new technologies (esp Nissan) that wildly let the cylinder pressure sweet spot moved all around depending on conditions is another gold mine for the tuners. 

 

WE HAVE NONE OF THAT IN SM.  The highest tech piece we have is a movable cam gear with a 2 wire solenoid on the 01-05.  

 

Our cylinder pressure sweet spot with the one legal cam choice per motor, properly and legally assembled to the correct compression, and especially with the stock manifolds where cylinder fill is same same car to car, is easy to find and tune for.  TUNING THESE are not the big scary process.  Just ask ITA guys doing it now with miatas.

 

AND again, it is all about making the 20th place runoff finisher not wondering about those that made tech having some rare or illegal tuned management sytem.

 

I realize the change factor here is probably too high for the class.  But I hope people will get the point that there are easy buttons out there to make sure the performance envelope car to car is attainable by all, cheaply and straight forward....

 

Now back to the shock discussion....  and how if a range is legal currently maybe we need an adjustment knob for it instead of 3 sets of shocks...    

 

[Parity]

You cant stop ANYONE from cheating if that is what you want to do, period!  That works on 99.5% and what ever you propose wont work on the other .5 % either, they will just look elsewhere

Totally disagree with this Jim. 99.5% and .05% are 99.55% You still leave .45% unaccounted for.

[Jim Drago]

Totally disagree with this Jim. 99.5% and .05% are 99.55% You still leave .45% unaccounted for.

what are you talking about  ( I was hoping to slide in under that .45 %  )

[Tom Hampton]

You cant stop ANYONE from cheating if that is what you want to do, period!  That works on 99.5% and what ever you propose wont work on the other .5 % either, they will just look elsewhere

 

Nice.

[Steve Scheifler]

KW78, we aren't getting anywhere, in part because you think it's all about the top 20 or whatever at the Runoffs, which amounts to what % of all SM drivers? So you mix obvious facts with erroneous assumptions, then misunderstand my objections. If we were talking about just people trying to win a Majors or attend the Runoffs, I would be onboard, but we aren't, or shouldn't be.

Until proven wrong, I think the class as a whole is better off and more even dealing with cheated stock ECUs than opening them up. If you accept that then your primary goal of eliminating that tech item is what goes away. I hate it and would like to see a means of tamper detection, but nothing is perfect.

BTW, although the IT classes have long allowed aftermarket ECUs I'd wager that only a small percentage of them actually run one, and they aren't exactly known for close competition amongst clusters of cars. I don't see how they can be the model of success any more than a pro series.

[Jim Drago]

Until proven wrong, I think the class as a whole is better off and more even dealing with cheated stock ECUs than opening them up. If you accept that then your primary goal of eliminating that tech item is what goes away. I hate it and would like to see a means of tamper detection, but nothing is perfect.

 

My opinion is well. 

[KW78]

KW78, we aren't getting anywhere, in part because you think it's all about the top 20 or whatever at the Runoffs, which amounts to what % of all SM drivers? So you mix obvious facts with erroneous assumptions, then misunderstand my objections. If we were talking about just people trying to win a Majors or attend the Runoffs, I would be onboard, but we aren't, or shouldn't be.

 

 

Steve,

 

I don't think it is just about competition at the runoffs, that is an errant conclusion.  See my other previous posts.  I cite the runoffs because the most spectacular tech effort available still doesn't have any good way to consistently regulate the spectrum of engine management issues.  I think SM should be tech-able all the way down to a regional race, which in my mind is only doable as competitor based/participating tech. (another change that is too scary for the class)

 

Until proven wrong, I think the class as a whole is better off and more even dealing with cheated stock ECUs than opening them up. If you accept that then your primary goal of eliminating that tech item is what goes away. I hate it and would like to see a means of tamper detection, but nothing is perfect.

 

Well that tech item is the point of the thread.  Consider that with the wiring problems we have, and I see no better solution.  Not even close.  Easy, cheap, transparent, simple to tech, user friendly.  And AGAIN, not "open" ecm, a SPEC ecm that is easy to use.

BTW, although the IT classes have long allowed aftermarket ECUs I'd wager that only a small percentage of them actually run one, and they aren't exactly known for close competition amongst clusters of cars. I don't see how they can be the model of success any more than a pro series.

 

Clearly my point was that the MS ECM is easy to use, as already shown by existing miata club racers.

 

Kyle

[luvin_the_rings]

For all us Regional guys who are just getting into this in their first NA, on the cheap, re-tuning the ECU, or the shocks, is not an option.  Its Either Bone stock, or full swap.  Piggybacks arn't even really an option either. If the wiring is going out, the NA guys need to be able to replace it, on the cheap.  That's part of choosing that chassis to race with.  

 

Also, its already expensive to get into this class, don't make it more expensive.   We are already spending hours on the dyno finicking with the stupid AFM clock spring, I don't want to have to drop another $800-$1000 including labor to buy and install a new management system. If the shocks rebound is not right, or some think another setting works better, then make a new shock with Bilstien, and sell it along side, or as a superseded part, for the SAME PRICE and let people replace it at their own convince.  Spending money on a rebuild is too expensive, given the price of the shocks.

 

The class needs to be able to bring new teams in at a very reduced cost, that's how this class thrives.   People need to be able to hop online during their lunch break, order some shocks, or an stock ECU for $100, and get a very competitive product on their doorstep the next week. No modifying allowed whatsoever.  Its the only way this class will be able to keep new teams coming in.  

[Parity]

As a mid pack guy I definitely would not want to go to another ECU and tuning. Everyone spends more money for the same results. And if there are gains we stand to fuel the eternal parity debate. Let's take the money we would spend on hardware and hire a driving coach instead.

[Rob Burgoon]

For all us Regional guys who are just getting into this in their first NA, on the cheap, re-tuning the ECU, or the shocks, is not an option.  Its Either Bone stock, or full swap.  Piggybacks arn't even really an option either. If the wiring is going out, the NA guys need to be able to replace it, on the cheap.  That's part of choosing that chassis to race with.  

 

Also, its already expensive to get into this class, don't make it more expensive.   We are already spending hours on the dyno finicking with the stupid AFM clock spring, I don't want to have to drop another $800-$1000 including labor to buy and install a new management system. If the shocks rebound is not right, or some think another setting works better, then make a new shock with Bilstien, and sell it along side, or as a superseded part, for the SAME PRICE and let people replace it at their own convince.  Spending money on a rebuild is too expensive, given the price of the shocks.

 

The class needs to be able to bring new teams in at a very reduced cost, that's how this class thrives.   People need to be able to hop online during their lunch break, order some shocks, or an stock ECU for $100, and get a very competitive product on their doorstep the next week. No modifying allowed whatsoever.  Its the only way this class will be able to keep new teams coming in.  

 

Changing to an ECU would likely mean AFM delete as part of it.  I'm sure you'd enjoy throwing that thing in the trash.

[Mark]

Wait till you waste a few weekends chasing wiring harness issues and report back. We lost many $$ on aborted events due to harness issues and I know we're not alone. Ultimately we rewired the car at the track with some harnesses sourced from ebay. That was fun. Luckily the ebay harnesses had no issues.  

 

As a mid pack guy I definitely would not want to go to another ECU and tuning. Everyone spends more money for the same results. And if there are gains we stand to fuel the eternal parity debate. Let's take the money we would spend on hardware and hire a driving coach instead.

[Steve Scheifler]

Wait till you waste a few weekends chasing wiring harness issues and report back. We lost many $$ on aborted events due to harness issues and I know we're not alone. Ultimately we rewired the car at the track with some harnesses sourced from ebay. That was fun. Luckily the ebay harnesses had no issues.

Something like the proposed MS PnP ECU would not solve that problem. Either way you would need a new harness or repair or fabricate one when yours is bad.

[Mark]

And... that is one of the reasons my suggestion included a milspec standalone engine wiring harness. 

 

Something like the proposed MS PnP ECU would not solve that problem. Either way you would need a new harness or repair of fabricate one when yours is bad.

[Steve Scheifler]

But you can do that regardless, so the solution to that problem is not in any way dependent on an ECU. Just making that clear because your response to Paul could be interpreted otherwise.

That nifty new harness would cost what?

[Mark]

Where in the rules does it say you can replace the harness with a non-Mazda part? A new Mazda harnesses is very expensive so not really an option. 

 

When I played with the idea of running STL I was quoted 350.00 for the complete engine harness. 

 

Mark

 

But you can do that regardless, so the solution to that problem is not in any way dependent on an ECU. Just making that clear because your response to Paul could be interpreted otherwise.

That nifty new harness would cost what?

[Steve Scheifler]

I'm not saying the rules allow it now, my point is that if a new harness is the solution to a problem then get it allowed, but that doesn't need to be combined with a new ECU.

Has anyone found that there really are many harness issues other than connectors?

[Mark]

Sorry Steve - I misinterpreted the 'But you can do that regardless' phrase in your post to mean that it was currently allowed. 

 

My data points are few. My NB is one car and I know of one other locally that needed a new engine harness. Several around here have done the CAS and pigtail replacement but it has not been a 100% fix by any means.  Other reasons for a spec harness include to easier tech, elimination of places to introduce piggy back ecus and resistors, ease of parity adjustments, and the like. Easier tech is a big one in that list. 

 

Hey... all this is just part of running SM, warts and all. I would like to see a spec ecu, harness, and spec tune personally but it is never going to happen imo. I think time is better spent focusing the discussion towards items that can more easily obtain consensus and generate enough momentum to make it into the tech and rules process. I like this ecu discussion but it is not going to go anywhere. It is fun to blue sky though.

[Steve Scheifler]

Agreed.

[Danny Steyn]

Harness issues are a reality. Multiple failures on my cars over the years and others that I know personally

[Steve Scheifler]

Please elaborate. I have never had belt webbing fail even partially, nor am I aware that anyone I know has had such a failure.

Edit: Ooops , sorry, mixing up the topics. I thought Danny was talking about seat belt/harness failures.