284 replies to this topic

[tburas56]

Some contact happens at the front and you just have to accept it. Example, Danny keeps all his footage so he could probibly bring it up, he and I were in the top 3 at Nola a few years back, I was behind him going through turn 6 - 7 combination, we were dead nuts 7 - 8 laps in a row, wide open at the exact same time, one lap he missed it by a few feet and i nutted him out the way, I did not mean to: as soon as the race was over I went over and sorry. He said something to the effect he missed it and it happens. Over and done. Guys be careful what you ask for. A overlord to determine bad from good could be bad all the way around.  Please note: I wrote this on a beach after lobster diving and a few straight Rums! Enjoy Racing and Life, don't take it so seriously!

[38bfast]

its seems always to be ok between drivers if its a slight tap or rub or folded mirror. but it doesn't take much more than slight tap to cause major carnage. I have heard it many times "I just taped him" and the result was a car totaled in the wall. its a very fine line between its ok and I am going to rip off your head and crap down your neck" 

[Rob Burgoon]

its seems always to be ok between drivers if its a slight tap or rub or folded mirror. but it doesn't take much more than slight tap to cause major carnage. I have heard it many times "I just taped him" and the result was a car totaled in the wall. its a very fine line between its ok and I am going to rip off your head and crap down your neck" 

 

Yep.  I have a feeling that this petition is going to just turn into stewards thinking that they need to chase down every scuff mark and telling tech to make sure the cars are nothing short of perfect so those scuffs can be more easily detected.

 

Class: "We're tired of folks wrecking half the field"
Steward: "did I just hear vintage racing?  oh yes, we can do vintage racing, I'll interpret "racing room" to mean an extra car width of space on either side.  You guys were having too much fun anyway."

[FTodaro]

its seems always to be ok between drivers if its a slight tap or rub or folded mirror. but it doesn't take much more than slight tap to cause major carnage. I have heard it many times "I just taped him" and the result was a car totaled in the wall. its a very fine line between its ok and I am going to rip off your head and crap down your neck" 

 

 

Ralph the penalty has to fit the crime. Yes a slight tap in the corner has a different result as in a straight line, but you have to look at the outcome to determine if action has to be taken. That is called "judgment"

Yep.  I have a feeling that this petition is going to just turn into stewards thinking that they need to chase down every scuff mark and telling tech to make sure the cars are nothing short of perfect so those scuffs can be more easily detected.

 

 

Rob I think the purpose of the Petition is to swing the pendulum back to the middle, Right now its out of sight. I think the risk is low that its going to swing all the way over to your point above, Remember, a part of this problem is the lack of desire to be spanking people while trying to enjoy your weekend and the time to do all the spanking. 

[Rob Burgoon]

Ralph the penalty has to fit the crime. Yes a slight tap in the corner has a different result as in a straight line, but you have to look at the outcome to determine if action has to be taken. That is called "judgment"

Rob I think the purpose of the Petition is to swing the pendulum back to the middle, Right now its out of sight. I think the risk is low that its going to swing all the way over to your point above, Remember, a part of this problem is the lack of desire to be spanking people while trying to enjoy your weekend and the time to do all the spanking. 

 

Just pointing out that nuance is going to be a big deal.  If someone words the petition poorly, all kinds of ways to interpret that call for action.

[FTodaro]

Just pointing out that nuance is going to be a big deal.  If someone words the petition poorly, all kinds of ways to interpret that call for action.

Agree, I am actually working on a draft. My plan will be to share it before we do anything. right now i am torn on the wisdom of putting to much in there other than to say we have an enforcement problem. If we get to specific some people may agree or disagree and not sign do to the specifics when all we want to do is start the conversation.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Some contact happens at the front and you just have to accept it. Example, Danny keeps all his footage so he could probibly bring it up, he and I were in the top 3 at Nola a few years back, I was behind him going through turn 6 - 7 combination, we were dead nuts 7 - 8 laps in a row, wide open at the exact same time, one lap he missed it by a few feet and i nutted him out the way, I did not mean to: as soon as the race was over I went over and sorry. He said something to the effect he missed it and it happens. Over and done. Guys be careful what you ask for. A overlord to determine bad from good could be bad all the way around. Please note: I wrote this on a beach after lobster diving and a few straight Rums! Enjoy Racing and Life, don't take it so seriously!

There is alot of merit in this post! At the end of my nasa involvement back in 2012 several of my fellow racers and I had an agreement thst if we had contact that nasa deemed reportable we would meet at rhe scales have a talk about if we felt we needed to report or if we felt it was a simple race incident... As we both knew it was impossible to predict what nasa should decide, we swept a few minor things under the carpet with no animosity going forward, just like you talking with the fastest sm driver on the planet after you punted him because of his screw up.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Personally I believe in talking to other guy privatly, I think when you take care of that behavior starts to change sometimes slowly but it does. There is a racer who I had some very stern warnings for a few years ago, he has become one od the most respectful racers on the track over the last couple seasons and i now trust him door to door everywhere on every track, im sure reading this he knows who he is but I will not name the name. He has become a hell of a good driver and I think we both have very good respect for each other now! So it can be done without a czar etc.

[MotoFusi]

My only experience with the NASA impound was I spun myself and got hit by two passing cars. I went to the impound and the driver I collected had put in a report that I was rough driving and had dive bombed him. I got a stern lecture from the SM Steward and was told my provisional license was in jeopardy. I kept trying to explain that I wasn't even two wide, yes I has spun myself but rough driving? I hadn't even bump drafted or been bumped. I pulled the video out and showed him. The other guy either had no clue what was going on around him or just a plain liar. In the end, racing incident.

 

By the way, it was my first real race after the school.

 

In open wheel dirt track, it's handled man to man. Most of the time LOL. I got put into the wall at Limaland by a car I had never seen before that night. I flipped, not injured. It is customary that the offending party come to your pit and explain and/or apologize. I waited and waited. I was fixing the car and got more pissed with each new bit I was replacing. I walked down to his pit only to find the driver was a 16 year old kid that turned out was his first race. He didn't say much when I asked WTF? His daddy had a mouth though...................

 

After a meaningful discussion and attitude adjustment session, daddy STFU. I explained that daddy would be held accountable for any further lapses in his son's judgment.

 

The kid drove clean the rest of the year.........

[Bench Racer]

After reading many comments and viewing on track antics it seems doubtful after the fact drivers conversations and driver to driver stern warnings will be nearly as effective as logbook tally which is a key point, points, probation or suspension pending the circumstance. If someone were to video record an entire SCCA race from T5 to T6 at Road America it would show the ongoing antics and antics happen through out the class.  For example the antics during the 2016 June Sprints were ridiculous.

[FTodaro]

My only experience with the NASA impound was I spun myself and got hit by two passing cars. I went to the impound and the driver I collected had put in a report that I was rough driving and had dive bombed him. I got a stern lecture from the SM Steward and was told my provisional license was in jeopardy. I kept trying to explain that I wasn't even two wide, yes I has spun myself but rough driving? I hadn't even bump drafted or been bumped. I pulled the video out and showed him. The other guy either had no clue what was going on around him or just a plain liar. In the end, racing incident.

 

By the way, it was my first real race after the school.

 

In open wheel dirt track, it's handled man to man. Most of the time LOL. I got put into the wall at Limaland by a car I had never seen before that night. I flipped, not injured. It is customary that the offending party come to your pit and explain and/or apologize. I waited and waited. I was fixing the car and got more pissed with each new bit I was replacing. I walked down to his pit only to find the driver was a 16 year old kid that turned out was his first race. He didn't say much when I asked WTF? His daddy had a mouth though...................

 

After a meaningful discussion and attitude adjustment session, daddy STFU. I explained that daddy would be held accountable for any further lapses in his son's judgment.

 

The kid drove clean the rest of the year.........

Randy, part of the problem we hope to address is the fact that you are right, many drivers have no clue about racing etiquette. One of the proposals that we are going to float is that SCCA pay for and produce a professional quality video on the topic of racing Etiquette. We do not do a good job of teaching how to race. You show up and do a one or two day comp school and your off to the races. 

 

That other group attempts to used pictures and drawings to discuss how to apply the rules, but i envision some in car footage of situations, and have some accomplished drivers discuss their decision making process as it relates to the rules. This could be used for any new driver and any driver that accumulates points. They can put it on line and document if you watched it or not, print off a certificate of completion. The idea of enforcing rules is educational as well as punitive.

 

Regarding the status of this process

 

We have a draft of a Petition, but still kicking ideas around. Its my understanding that SCCA has heard our concerns and talking about it. We will see what develops in the near term.

 

I think the general consensus is that we have a problem.

 

What is not clear is what is the best fix.

 

We have concerns that it does not turn into a NASA style beat down. So the difficulty will be finding the balance between better rule enforcement and heavyhandedness.

 

I think this can be done, so as we go through the process, people need to be involved and speak up.

[MotoFusi]

Randy, part of the problem we hope to address is the fact that you are right, many drivers have no clue about racing etiquette. One of the proposals that we are going to float is that SCCA pay for and produce a professional quality video on the topic of racing Etiquette. We do not do a good job of teaching how to race. You show up and do a one or two day comp school and your off to the races. 

 

That other group attempts to used pictures and drawings to discuss how to apply the rules, but i envision some in car footage of situations, and have some accomplished drivers discuss their decision making process as it relates to the rules. This could be used for any new driver and any driver that accumulates points. They can put it on line and document if you watched it or not, print off a certificate of completion. The idea of enforcing rules is educational as well as punitive.

 

Regarding the status of this process

 

We have a draft of a Petition, but still kicking ideas around. Its my understanding that SCCA has heard our concerns and talking about it. We will see what develops in the near term.

 

I think the general consensus is that we have a problem.

 

What is not clear is what is the best fix.

 

We have concerns that it does not turn into a NASA style beat down. So the difficulty will be finding the balance between better rule enforcement and heavyhandedness.

 

I think this can be done, so as we go through the process, people need to be involved and speak up.

 

 

The video is a great idea Frank. SCCA school was far better than NASA's but still lacked the decision making and etiquette aspects.

[Jim Drago]

The video is a great idea Frank. SCCA school was far better than NASA's but still lacked the decision making and etiquette aspects.

Randy Pobst did a great talk at the show a few years ago. I may be able to get him to do a webinar for us if there is any interest?

Jim

[FTodaro]

Of all the ideas that we have kicked around the contact impound has been well received.

 

Since we may be proposing this idea I thought we might want to try and fine tune the language.

 

I have taken the NASA language and made some modifications to it.

 

What i would like to talk about is the concept that the purpose of this impound is to get the two drivers to talk about what happened from each others viewpoint.

 

My though is that if the rule is that each driver has to report to impound, fill out a form, and can agree on why it happened and who was responsible for contact, then its mission accomplished.

 

Using the word fault is strong but responsibility means that one or both drivers had some responsibility. It takes into consideration that even when you are right you still have the responsibility to avoid contact if you can.

 

However, if the two drivers can agree on one or joint responsibility, then there is no need for the Stewards to get involved, except for the extreme situation where cars are destroyed.

 

So take a look at this model , I am suggesting,

 

1. Mandatory reoprting

2. self regulation, if possible and 

3. if no agreement then SCCA decides.

 

This allows the drivers to stay in control of the process IMO and only look to SCCA where there is no agreement. But the drivers cannot chose to avoid impound or having a discussion as to what happened. Which is where we are now.

 

Thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Body Contact

 

Body Contact is defined as any part of a car making physical contact with another car significant enough to cause one (1) of the cars to sustain body damage or to be significantly knocked off of the racing line. Any driver involved in body contact must go directly to impound and fill out a contact report form.

 

Damage

 

Damage from an incident is limited to the following definition: Any sheet metal, fiberglass, or other body

material, deformity significant enough to require repair.  Damage to suspension or other mechanical components are not included in this definition. Damage to plastic or vinyl bumper covers, trim pieces, splitters, marker lights; and marks from tire rubs, are not considered damage for the purposes of this section.

 

Course Deviation

 

Course deviation is defined as: when a driver is forced to significantly deviate from the “normal” racing line as a direct result of body contact from another car. Voluntary deviation to avoid another incident in not considered “deviation” for the purposes of assessing fault. This includes front to rear contact in a corner, that results in a change in position.

 

Reporting requirements

 

Each Driver is required to report to contact impound and fill out a contact sheet. Discuss the incident between drivers and first attempt to resolve the any dispute about why contact occurred and if one or both drivers were at fault.

 

Disputes that cannot be solved by driver agreement shall be resolved by the contact steward.

 

Failure to report to impound without legitimate reasons will allow the contact steward to make a finding of fault and issue penalties if appropriate.

 

 

 

[Tom Hampton]

You've left out the consequence phase of the process. 

 

Also, I think that the Contact Steward should concur with the self-regulation.  And further, that self-regulation doesn't circumvent any consequences.

[38bfast]

just because two drivers don't have a issue with contact does not mean it should go without ramifications. Drivers need to be accountable for their actions. If small contact goes unchecked it can quickly escalates to more sever situations. Penalties can fit the crime, like move back one spot for light contact. 

[FTodaro]

just because two drivers don't have a issue with contact does not mean it should go without ramifications. Drivers need to be accountable for their actions. If small contact goes unchecked it can quickly escalates to more sever situations. Penalties can fit the crime, like move back one spot for light contact. 

Ralph this is where you and I disagree. I know you want consequences for all contact without regard to the gravity of the harm. So If I tap you in a corner and you do not spin and we do not change positions its just unintentional touching, I am in the no harm no foul camp. If i do the exact same thing next corner but this time you spin, I would treat that differently based upon what happened, not what could happen. 

 

Normally, contact needs to be defined and bending metal that is going to need to be repaired. Not sure yet how we spell it out.

 

IMO if we move to your point of view we will be swinging the pendulum to far the other way.

 

I also think that giving the drivers the opportunity to work it out goes a long way in solving our problem.

 

I could be wrong.

 

 

I am not trying to waffle on the topic but We don't want to go to far the other way.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I would personally not sign onto a petition where if two drivers decide no action is necessary after a talk in impound. That the govt (scca) still gets involved to mandate their wished.

If drivers agree on fault that is not the same as agreeing the scca doesn't need to be involved. IMO penalties should've be dollars in some cases to be paid toward damaged to another car.

I am against anything that takes the decision to escalate or not escalate the contact to some higher authority!

This is one of the many problems we have in our society today, we do not need someone to tell us they know what we need better we know for ourselves...

[Bench Racer]

Not to take a Trump position, BUT, OUR country is totally screwed because no one receives any serious consequences for their actions, and it's the same with our actions on SCCA tracks.  The SCCA has on course driver contact rules today.

 

I could look back at plenty of posted video (from the rear of the group to the front of the group) and find someone's actions should have got them some serious points or license probation and nothing happen because of the good old boys group hug/working it out. Has the group hug/work it out changed anyone's actions. I don't think so.  

 

Frank because your taking lead with this proposal, use the Gingerman front straight crash action as an example, use your model and tell us all your model outcome. Within your model, how is a driver incident tally tracked?

 

If I were king at the Gingerman situation, I would have imposed serious  consequences to a couple drivers, as could/would many of you. But we don't want any hurt feelings therefore the whole deal get's swept under the rug.  

[FTodaro]

Not to take a Trump position, BUT, OUR country is totally screwed because no one receives any serious consequences for their actions, and it's the same with our actions on SCCA tracks.  The SCCA has on course driver contact rules today.

 

I could look back at plenty of posted video (from the rear of the group to the front of the group) and find someone's actions should have got them some serious points or license probation and nothing happen because of the good old boys group hug/working it out. Has the group hug/work it out changed anyone's actions. I don't think so.  

 

Frank because your taking lead with this proposal, use the Gingerman front straight crash action as an example, use your model and tell us all your model outcome. Within your model, how is a driver incident tally tracked?

 

If I were king at the Gingerman situation, I would have imposed serious  consequences to a couple drivers, as could/would many of you. But we don't want any hurt feelings therefore the whole deal get's swept under the rug.  

Without using names, I would have issues penalties. I think every driver in the paddock that weekend was surprised  that something did not happen. Myself and others were upset to hear that labeled a racing incident.

 

Bench this is what we are trying to fix. Now running Gingerman though the contact impound. My suspicion  is that the 2 or 3 guys who had their cars destroyed would not be happy campers. If someone said I done it, i think even if the drivers agree on who was at fault, in a situation like this i think the officials would be correct in issuing a penalty of points or probation what ever is appropriate.

 

In Kyle's post above I agree with him in a minor incident were there is fender contact if its minor, drivers agree on fault, SCCA should keep out of it, but when two three cars are going home on a flat bed, that takes this to a different level. There was serious risk of injury in those crashes. That would dictate points and probation IMO.

 

We are never going to take Judgment out of the equation. What we are trying to do is obtain better enforcement and some consistency. It will never be perfect, but it can be better.