177 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

How about leave the plate alone for the time being, drop 20 lbs, and marker light delete. See how it goes and adjust. I'd rather you leave the car alone than this. Now I have almost 100 lbs in the passenger well and the ride height is going to be screwed to achieve good cross numbers.

[Jamz14]

I'll be petitioning Xavier to NOT implement this change at nasa.

[Jim Drago]

Jamz.. 

Just my opinion.. but here is why I like the idea.. 

 

Lets call the change 3.5-4 hp/ 3 ft lbs as that is what I saw..  I always looked at it as about 20 lbs per Hp as rough estimate

 

"If' the cars were equal before this change.... You should be gaining about 70-80 lbs for the increase in performance from pulling the plate.  Most including myself thought they weren't.  So instead of getting 70-80 lbs of weight, you got 50. This takes the car out of the no mands land.. too heavy to compete with 1.6 on tight track and not enough power to compete with 99 on long track.  If the car still proves it needs a little help, it will likely lose another 25. IMO, it is either correct now or may need to lose another 25 at some point.  Thats my opinion.. you know what they say about opinions

Jim

[Bench Racer]

James, WOW, we agree to agree and not to argue.

 

SMAC, if we truly wanted to be transparent we'd lay 99 and VVT curves over the NA 1.8. Same dyno different day include the day variables. Sometimes we forget about the necessary on track racing requirement to have the engine outside the ideal racing rpm, in the case of the engines were talking about I'll take the engine with it's peak torque at 4,500 rpm or below. I'd prefer the engine with peak torque 4,500 rpm and peak hp at 6,500 rpm. Gee, that would not be the NA 1.8. at equal weight with the 99 1.8.  

 

Even if the overlays are dead the same and the weight is equal, all those in the know say the NB chassis/suspension are far superior to the NA!!!

 

 

Those questioning the NA 1.8 testing, maybe some of the tests your questioning were completed.

 

Back under my rock.

[Todd Lamb]

How about leave the plate alone for the time being, drop 20 lbs, and marker light delete. See how it goes and adjust. I'd rather you leave the car alone than this. Now I have almost 100 lbs in the passenger well and the ride height is going to be screwed to achieve good cross numbers.

If you can't figure out how to adjust cross independent of ride height you have much bigger things to worry about than a restrictor plate and weight.

[Jim Drago]

Now I have almost 100 lbs in the passenger well and the ride height is going to be screwed to achieve good cross numbers.

 

I would consider that a blessing  Imagine having all of that weight on drivers side and nothing in passengers side . I know a guy that has to deal with that every weekend.   In a perfect world.. you would have a 150 lbs pilot with 150 lbs of ballast. 

[Rob Burgoon]

I'll be petitioning Xavier to NOT implement this change at nasa.

 

Why not?  Seems like a win to me, especially if they add side marker.

[Jamz14]

What would that problem be todd? Don't be coy, tell me where and why I am stupid as to what's going on. What am I missing? Why is a car with 5 less hp and the same weight a good thing? What NA 1.8 magic is there that compensates for that? And why do you think anyone is going to develop and give feedback now if they weren't enough built before with interest in doing so? Why such a dramatic change? Why not smaller more incremental changes?

No one bothered to comment on obd1 vs obd2 differences. Do you believe there are any?

[Jamz14]

Rob, see above. I don't see why the NA 1.8 would be as good as a Nb at the same weight with less hp. Why not leave the restrictor, give us the marker light and lighten us closer to the 1.6?

I have a lotus philosophy. I'd rather adjust by dropping weight aNd thereby improving all other dynamic systems than adding weight and screwing everything else up.

[mglobe]

Just sayin', there are three possible approaches to implementing changes, for the NA1.8 or any other year/model

• Give them too much additional performance, and when you see you have created an overdog, then take some of what you gave them away, or
• Give them too little additional performance, and when you see you still have an underdog, then give them an additional break, or
• GIve them exactly the right amount and make no further changes

One of these approaches is less desirable than the other two

How about real world testing with one of the top drivers like yourself. Run your car, then run a well built 1.8. Look at Vmin, exit speed, rate of acceleration,... without plate and various weights? Not perfect I know, but another data point.

[Ron Alan]

If you can't figure out how to adjust cross independent of ride height you have much bigger things to worry about than a restrictor plate and weight.

Great response...dont answer the legitamate questions when you can poke fun(if in fact it was in jest)?

 

Danny put up bad examples iMO so lets see what was really used...trust me, I hope the SMAC has it dead on! 

[Jamz14]

Jim, the cars weren't equal before this though.

[Todd Lamb]

What would that problem be todd? Don't be coy, tell me where and why I am stupid as to what's going on. What am I missing? Why is a car with 5 less hp and the same weight a good thing? What NA 1.8 magic is there that compensates for that? And why do you think anyone is going to develop and give feedback now if they weren't enough built before with interest in doing so? Why such a dramatic change? Why not smaller more incremental changes?

No one bothered to comment on obd1 vs obd2 differences. Do you believe there are any?

 

Jamz: You stated that "Now I have almost 100 lbs in the passenger well and the ride height is going to be screwed to achieve good cross numbers" as one of the reasons you didn't want weight added to the car. I'm pointing out that isn't a legitimate argument because cross can be adjusted independent of ride height. This type of flawed logic does not help your case.

 

To all: The SMAC has put forth what we believe to be the adjustments needed to achieve parity. We will continue to monitor parity for ALL years but at this time no further changes are being considered. This discussion sounds exactly like the 1.6 crowd complaints and nay-saying when the recent changes were announced, yet we seem to have gotten that right.

[Bench Racer]

This discussion sounds exactly like the 1.6 crowd complaints and nay-saying when the recent changes were announced, yet we seem to have gotten that right.

YES indeed someone finally listen to the 1.6 crowd's communication and IIRC we who really cared thanked the SMAC  for their effort.

 

To damn bad Slattery isn't around anymore. But then, he'd have nothing to bitch about.

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob, see above. I don't see why the NA 1.8 would be as good as a Nb at the same weight with less hp. Why not leave the restrictor, give us the marker light and lighten us closer to the 1.6?

I have a lotus philosophy. I'd rather adjust by dropping weight aNd thereby improving all other dynamic systems than adding weight and screwing everything else up.

 

I dunno about you, but I can't reach min weight now with cool shirt and fire system.  I'd need to ditch both to try to get close to 2325.  

 

Let's run the 2400 and no plate, and then get another 20 lbs off if that doesn't do it.  But I welcome changes that make my car behave more like an NB.

[Jim Drago]

Jim, the cars weren't equal before this though.

I said "if", but the cars were given something.. basically a 1-2 Hp gain at that weight.

Great response...dont answer the legitamate questions when you can poke fun(if in fact it was in jest)?
 
Danny put up bad examples iMO so lets see what was really used...trust me, I hope the SMAC has it dead on!

I think Danny's post is confusing some as it is taken as fact.  For one second.. Lets "assume" Danny was incorrect in calling the 122 car with no plate "top prep", because IMO he was mistaken   A good 1.8 car with no plate will make VERY similar HP to a 99 and now it weighs the same. In most cases it will make slightly more Hp and slightly less Tq than a 99.   The NA 1.8 'should" be marginally better with this change IMO.  I think we should try the new configuration before claiming it wont work. This is not a "major" change. this is a good change and it is in the right direction. I had nothing to do with this change, but I do believe it was a good call by the SMAC and congratulate them on it.  Give it a chance, my guess is you will like it better than what you had last year. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, but I do feel it was a good and needed change.
 
Jim

[Tyler Kicera]

How about real world testing with one of the top drivers like yourself. Run your car, then run a well built 1.8. Look at Vmin, exit speed, rate of acceleration,... without plate and various weights? Not perfect I know, but another data point.

 

In case you missed it on an earlier parity thread, I tested Brandon Fetch's NA at Pitt earlier this season.  I did not set the car up or check pressures, and only had about 8 laps in the car.  I jumped out of my VVT into his car a session later and only went 0.3 seconds slower.  PittRace is a demanding track that rewards the VVT car IMHO.  Where the NA seemed to make up for the lack of power/torque was from entry to apex and apex speed.  I only had eight laps in it, but was surprised at how different it felt under me.

 

This is very good news for anyone with an NA.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.   

[Jamz14]

Todd, I get it. Your response is no different than the first one. I'm asking you how to modify the cross without dicking with the perches or moving weight around in a legal fashion? How to do it without messing with other things that you don't want to do like bar preloads? Help a brother out instead of remaining cagey on the subject.

[Jamz14]

Rob, my legal weight is 2350. Your poSt brings up a good point though. If your weight in a 95 is 2325 and mine in a 97 is 2350, why the difference? Obd1 and 2 differences? If it was thought that a difference was needed back when these weights were set at there current level, what changed in the new accessments?

[Jamz14]

Rob, clean the dirt off the car and you might make weight. You know I'm playing with you and think your car is one of the most beautiful on the west coast with all those race win stickers on it.