105 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Since when do you care about damage to the class?

 

Citation needed.  And no, calling the SCCA out for it's shortcomings doesn't count.

[Rob Burgoon]

 I have found most people who get into SM do a fair bit of research before jumping in. I'm guessing you were one of those that did your due diligence. 

 

Why on earth would I have built a NA8 if I had any idea what I was doing when I got started?

[Jamz14]

The flip side is that currently the gains in the best possible programmed ECU are very small with allowance of timing and FP regulators.  I dont think it is worth losing any sleep over.  My car is likely to be pulled down pretty far in the very near future. It should show that what many feel is the best car in the country is getting there within the rules and with no reflashed ecu. 

 

 

Ron

The 99 ca vs fed computers are different and detectable on dyno.. but IMO not such a difference that require switching.  The Fed computer will run both cars or vice versa

Ok Jim, you drew my out of lurking. I disagree. I have seen a car that wasn't using the a stock ECU config go from the back, to the podium running that ECU. The difference was highly significant. In the hands of a really good driver that knows how to drive while masking performance advantages...........

[Jim Drago]

Ok Jim, you drew my out of lurking. I disagree. I have seen a car that wasn't using the a stock ECU config go from the back, to the podium running that ECU. The difference was highly significant. In the hands of a really good driver that knows how to drive while masking performance advantages...........

 

 

You are saying they went from back of pack of approximately a 20+ car field or so to podium in the same or very similar field and all they added was an ecu? 

 

If the above scenario is what you are describing, I'm going to very disprespectfully disagree.

 

Pulling the plate wont even do that in the above scenario. In a 99+ car and that is about 10-12 adiiditional hp, a computer no matter how fancy or what the claims are will not do ANYTHING remotely close to that.  

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[Tom Sager]

Why on earth would I have built a NA8 if I had any idea what I was doing when I got started?

 

There was a time when they were very competitive.  SInce then, well, I probably shouldn't say anymore. 

[Jim Drago]

There was a time when they were very competitive.  SInce then, well, I probably shouldn't say anymore. 

You might take a look at Evan Karls video from VIR, that car was not lacking at all. Was a fresh Rossini build. 

[RazerX]

There used to be a problem with AS at the Runoffs, until they bounced several cars.  Last couple of Runoffs all cars were compliant.  Some were torn down to weigh the flywheel, in addition to lots of stuff on the engines.  Top couple of cars left in boxes.  The SM community demanded more tech and voted to pay extra for it.  I think drivers in the class can be pretty confident that if they get beat it isn't because of a cheater car.

 

I do like how NASA handled one of the western championships.  They dyno'd the cars, shared the sheets and asked if anyone wanted a tear down.  Just because you have a stick doesn't mean you have to use every time.  The competitors decided, and honestly it was my fellow competitors and their camaraderie that got me into SM.  If you look at the people that beat you and say 'yes, today they drove better than me' that is where the honor and glory is.  Have a beer, talk about what could better, etc..  Constant mistrust and conspiracy theory is the place of politics, and i have had wayyyy to much of that lately.     

[Jamz14]

You are saying they went from back of pack of approximately a 20+ car field or so to podium in the same or very similar field and all they added was an ecu? 

 

If the above scenario is what you are describing, I'm going to very disprespectfully disagree.

 

Pulling the plate wont even do that in the above scenario. In a 99+ car and that is about 10-12 adiiditional hp, a computer no matter how fancy or what the claims are will not do ANYTHING remotely close to that.  

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I am saying they went to the front of about a 15 car regional field. Whether they went from the midpack to the front, or the back to the front does it matter? I saw the car and it was a rocket with the ecu change. And this was a car that wasn't setup optimized. 

 

So let me understand what you are saying. If your competitors had 10HP on you that wouldn't be a big deal? Isn't the difference of even 5 hp what sets you apart from other builders? Isn't that what east st sells? A garagista builder can get 112 easy out of a NA 1.8 (ask me how I know that). A better garagista can get 119 out of an NA1.8. (ask me how I know that.) But an East St NA 122 or so (pre plate removal)? Wouldn't you tell that person that was going to be the difference between them winning and losing? If someone can get even 5 hp out of the ECU,  hell even 3 HP out of the ECU, someone is going to do it. And if your competitors had 3 hp on you, you wouldn't be happy with that as an engine builder and would fight like hell to close that gap.

 

Are you saying that there is no significant advantage to having a modified ECU? If so, you have a ton more experience in these things than me and I will drop this right here and now?

[Tom Sager]

You might take a look at Evan Karls video from VIR, that car was not lacking at all. Was a fresh Rossini build. 

My comment was more about the history of the competitiveness of the car over the last 10 years, excluding this year.  Jury has just convened on 2017. 

[Jim Drago]

I am saying they went to the front of about a 15 car regional field. Whether they went from the midpack to the front, or the back to the front does it matter? I saw the car and it was a rocket with the ecu change. And this was a car that wasn't setup optimized. 

 

So let me understand what you are saying. If your competitors had 10HP on you that wouldn't be a big deal? Isn't the difference of even 5 hp what sets you apart from other builders? Isn't that what east st sells? A garagista builder can get 112 easy out of a NA 1.8 (ask me how I know that). A better garagista can get 119 out of an NA1.8. (ask me how I know that.) But an East St NA 122 or so (pre plate removal)? Wouldn't you tell that person that was going to be the difference between them winning and losing? If someone can get even 5 hp out of the ECU,  hell even 3 HP out of the ECU, someone is going to do it. And if your competitors had 3 hp on you, you wouldn't be happy with that as an engine builder and would fight like hell to close that gap.

 

Are you saying that there is no significant advantage to having a modified ECU? If so, you have a ton more experience in these things than me and I will drop this right here and now?

James you said you saw a car go from the back to the front solely because of modified ECu.. I wanted to understand what you were saying as I know without a doubt that alone is in not way accurate.. I cited an example of 10-12 hp not taking back of the pack guy near the front by removing the plate.. I use this excercise a lot with customers and those I have helped who are consumed with power when 3 seconds plus off.. trying to give you an example of how 3-5 times the possible power gain of the computer didnt get what you described is all. 

 

To this above post.. You would be VERY HARD PRESSED  to gain more than 1/1 in a 99/00 for sure, I actually feel like I do better with stock ecu.. but I will give you 1/1, no way that is doing anything like what you described in ANY example.. On 01/05 I have heard of people picking up 2-3 with megaquirt playing with cam timing etc..  So lets say three although I have yet to see any that work

 

On the 99/00 no way worth worrying about

 

There is a known exceptional 94/95 reflashed computer that was 3 better than stock  before fp regulator, but wont be more than 1/1 now

 

The 96/97 computer a very good, again 1/1 over a good tune maybe..

 

so I guess the one possibility is the VVt, I would be willing to pay 1000 plus the cost of the for one that makes 3 better tan stock as I dont believe they exist.  I'll dyno and post the results here. So if someone wants to make 1000.00, offer it up.  

 

 IMO the only computer out there that has any posibility of making more than 2 hp over a properly tuned stock computer is a VVT car.  So yes, I guess I am saying that I am not that worried about it.  Of course I would not want to give that away to anyone, but I have no evidence this computer exists, I know it doesnt in 00 and down.

 

Jim

[Jamz14]

Jim, I saw what I saw. Back to front with only an ecu dropped in. Fair car to a missile. A car that I've seen for years with a good driver in it but not on the podium the years I've seen it and then it was 3rd. This wasn't cheating and I don't want to waste time on why it wasnt. But even the driver acknowledged the difference. As you and I know, drivers are not feeling a 1/1 difference. It was significant. This had nothing to do with having to show a doubtful driver that it isnt the power keeping them back. I completely agree that power isn't holding most back. But I think you also have to agree that power becomes important once again when you are only looking at the top drivers at the front. If the gains between a mod'ed or aftermarket ecu are insignificant why would anyone dyno for stock ecu selection? And your argument also torpedos any push back from competitors whining about have to use a randomly selected stock ecu from tech at the beginning of a weekend. So what's holding us back from distributing or swapping ECUs with other competitors? Rhetorical, I drop it.

[Jamz14]

For reference: It was a megasquirt in a 99 car.

[Jim Drago]

James

I will test whatever you like on computers for free. The example you stated above IMO is just not accurate, I know you believe it,  I just think there had to be more at play or some information unintentional left out of the equation.  Guys that can run at the front and win, dont run at the back when down 3 hp and it is my strong belief that no computer will bring more than that over stock or even that much. Many including myself have been in the position where we are down 3 hp and still finish top 5-7 in 35-40 car fields. Conversely, giving a guy that is running P25 or further back  3 additional hp is not moving that driver to the podium.

[Rob Burgoon]

James

I will test whatever you like on computers for free. The example you stated above IMO is just not accurate, I know you believe it,  I just think there had to be more at play or some information unintentional left out of the equation.  Guys that can run at the front and win, dont run at the back when down 3 hp and it is my strong belief that no computer will bring more than that over stock or even that much. Many including myself have been in the position where we are down 3 hp and still finish top 5-7 in 35-40 car fields. Conversely, giving a guy that is running P25 or further back  3 additional hp is not moving that driver to the podium.

 

 

Yeah, was probably coaching and getting temps under control or something along with the ecu.

[Jim Drago]

Yeah, was probably coaching and getting temps under control or something along with the ecu.

So you are telling me that 3 Hp is all that is needed to bring a car and driver from the back to the podium? Or are you telling me you believe a rempapped ECU is worth more than 3 hp in a 99? Or are you just being the typical sarcastic Rob and really dont know ?

[Ron Alan]

So again claiming little knowledge on the subject...though I think our older computers can be "re-flashed" I'm with Jim on just how little the net gain(peak) might be? And the few parameters the ecu can control we have the ability to manipulate them legally already in SM.

 

BUT...what I do wonder is if our older computers have the ability to really change the shape of the curve on a stock motor?

 

There is no doubt that the aftermarket computers can do this! A friend with a purpose built PTE car, aftermarket computer and a vvt motor had basically no more than the max stock HP you could get out of this motor but the curve was virtually a straight line from 5000-7000rpm! 

And that was max torque and HP running basically parallel!

[Rob Burgoon]

So you are telling me that 3 Hp is all that is needed to bring a car and driver from the back to the podium? Or are you telling me you believe a rempapped ECU is worth more than 3 hp in a 99? Or are you just being the typical sarcastic Rob and really dont know ?

 

Or maybe you can't see past your own biases, even when I'm agreeing with you?

[Jim Drago]

Or maybe you can't see past your own biases, even when I'm agreeing with you?

You got me

[Rob Burgoon]

Too much of the time on this cliquish forum folks can't hear what someone is saying because they are too distracted by who is saying it.

[MPR22]

James
I will test whatever you like on computers for free. The example you stated above IMO is just not accurate, I know you believe it,  I just think there had to be more at play or some information unintentional left out of the equation.  Guys that can run at the front and win, dont run at the back when down 3 hp and it is my strong belief that no computer will bring more than that over stock or even that much. Many including myself have been in the position where we are down 3 hp and still finish top 5-7 in 35-40 car fields. Conversely, giving a guy that is running P25 or further back  3 additional hp is not moving that driver to the podium.

+100

No way you go from p25 on a regular basis to p3 with 3hp. It could be 7hp and they would still struggle to get past p13 in normally populated field. I have seen people pull plates who dropped 2 seconds on high speed tracks in 99s, that would be +12ish.