105 replies to this topic

[BNaumann]

Guy in DFL can put up a protest bond if he's worried about cheater cars that finished in front of him. He shouldn't expect the entire field to be torn apart by the SCCA at their expense. Who protested the guy at COTA that was shifting suspiciously late? I bet no one because it was probably a position that didn't matter.

[Ron Alan]

SM is probably the most heavily Tech'd class in the history of Club Racing (maybe SS was tighter back in the day, but I doubt it).  There have been more engines torn down in SM than in all the other classes combined.  The fact that the compliance has been almost perfect is something that should be talked about on this and other forums.

Sadly...it would be actually perfect(I think?)at the Runoffs and a few other Major races(since 2010?) had it been left up to SCCA tech. 

 

Many new that the procedure tech was using to check compression ratio with a whistler machine was not accurate. When it became obvious to those in the know that others were gaming the system it was racers(protest?) who brought it to the attention of SCCA the procedure being used was not correct. 

 

2014 Runoffs it took a protest to open all our eyes to what was going on with the STR in the heads. Post race top 3 cars passed tech...then 9 cars(which included top 3) were looked at with regard to the item in the protest...8 failed. Again it was racers who had to bring this to light.

 

And please don't misunderstand my point here...I'm not ripping tech. I'm pointing out that it takes those with knowledge to keep all with knowledge on the right path!  Lets also not forget we've gotten a few changes to the rules over the years which essentially wipes out a cheat that was very hard to tech. We've also added language to the rules to avoid ambiguity(gray area?)!  But as we all know the target is constantly moving...regardless of how big or small. 

[Jamz14]

More engines torn down than any other class and yet we still ignore ECUs.

[Jim Drago]

Sadly...it would be actually perfect(I think?)at the Runoffs and a few other Major races(since 2010?) had it been left up to SCCA tech. 

 

Many new that the procedure tech was using to check compression ratio with a whistler machine was not accurate. When it became obvious to those in the know that others were gaming the system it was racers(protest?) who brought it to the attention of SCCA the procedure being used was not correct. 

 

2014 Runoffs it took a protest to open all our eyes to what was going on with the STR in the heads. Post race top 3 cars passed tech...then 9 cars(which included top 3) were looked at with regard to the item in the protest...8 failed. Again it was racers who had to bring this to light.

 

And please don't misunderstand my point here...I'm not ripping tech. I'm pointing out that it takes those with knowledge to keep all with knowledge on the right path!  Lets also not forget we've gotten a few changes to the rules over the years which essentially wipes out a cheat that was very hard to tech. We've also added language to the rules to avoid ambiguity(gray area?)!  But as we all know the target is constantly moving...regardless of how big or small. 

 

Make no mistake the PR was bad for the class in 14' and I regret any part that I had in it. Most all of the builders had pushed beyond the written rule and clearly the intent of it, most admitted it, some didn't. Some even wrote posts condemning it while knowingly running the same engines for years. The class was by far the most compliant before 2014 and still it is now. If you really think the STR was egregious and the class was out of control pre 2014, I would disagree with you.  The entire STR gate while non compliant,  was blown WAY out of proportion. the most blatant violation seen was less .75 of a hp. We had great close racing then, we have great close racing now.  The drivers and engine builders that were running at the front and winning pre 2014 are still winning now.  Those complaining then are still complaining now. 

 

Daytona was 2015, obviously post 14', it was the largest runoffs field we ever had and one of the best shows ever put on in amateur racing, even the other drivers and classes that hate SM applauded the show. Indy could be even bigger.  We don't have a PR problem right now other than the contact which is constantly attached to our class and IMO has been exaggerated. If you want large fields and close racing, unfortunately we will have more issues of contact than that of classes with 8-10 cars that all finish 5-10 seconds apart, it's common sense.  Of course we should do what we can to eliminate it, but it will always be a part of close racing. People who are looking to get into this class now and look at it closely will see a class where you can buy a car from 10 plus reputable builders all over the country, buy an engine from 8 plus reputable engine suppliers or build your own car and engine. With proper set up, tires and driver you can win races or run within tenths of the winner. With talent, car preparation, good set up and experience being the limiting factors. That in itself is a miraculous feat and a credit to all those who have guided the class since its inception. The class is in a very good place and IMO only getting better.  What hurts our class the most to new people considering the class is when we sabotage ourselves with internal bickering and complaining about the class, rival competitors, camps, engine and car builders. We are knocking our own legs out from under us with this type of behaviour. No one can say they care more about this class than myself, certainly no one has volunteered more time than I have. So if any of you truly have concerns for the about the reputation or direction of SM, you should step up and do something rather than complaining about how every thing sucks and pointing out all the negatives constantly. I have competed in this class and won races in this class every year since 2004 and I can say without a doubt the class has gotten better every year and certainly far more competitive every year with right now being the best it has EVER been. Sometimes competition brings the best out in people... sometimes competition brings the worst out in people as in pushing the rules, questioning and complaining about some of those finishing ahead of you etc. I have done both in the past, but now in the twilight of this hobby and yes it is a hobby.. I am just making a point of having fun and mentoring a few of the younger guys and helping any that ask while making sure that I enjoy what time that I have left in the hobby. I have never enjoyed the class more, almost like a weight is lifted off my shoulders and the results are speaking for themselves.  I still approach the race weekends very seriously and never show up unprepared, but none of this is life and death, we need to all take our "hobby" less serious and try to enjoy it while we can and not take for granted how lucky we all are to even be able to do this stuff for FUN!

[MPR22]

Will one of the moderators give Jim book  the award. It would look tacky if he gave it to himself.

[Johnny D]

I'm not one to sugar coat.

Jim and others were cheating in 14, if you asked before, they'd say no, afterwards they're sorry.

15 at daytona was great.

Whistlegate with the VVT's not so great.

 

back to the thread....

Jim post funny? not to some.

Ralph picking it up and running with it, probably not a wise choice, but hey, I pick up on crap and post it all the time, so.....who's to throw stones.

 

Greatest class IMO, people are trying their best to win, all part of the sport. Catch me if you can (in both meanings)

 

J~

[Ron Alan]

Good post Jim and as always you are the most consistent with your sincerity and thoughts on the class. Your desire to stay upbeat has always kept the moral here moving forward and I've always supported that. I to like to learn, understand, but then move on when there are bumps in the road. 

 

None of my posts in this thread are intended to be negative or complain...they are a simple effort to use facts to keep things moving forward. Though it is easy for many to scoff at Robs(black helicopter)post...his post is 100% valid. Agree or disagree as to where the current status of SM's PR lies...we all agree it does move around and we do have a reputation. IMO...we all want the class to be the best and understanding how we got here is paramount to achieving that goal!

 

For the record...I think our PR status is good and getting better. I think the class is as strong as its every been! My guess(and hope)is compliance is 100% at the top and it stays that way. CONTACT...well that is an obvious issue that many are trying to address. Knock on wood our first 4 SM races(30 cars) in NASA NORCAL have had nothing more than a few door donuts...good start to the 2017 season! 

[MPR22]

Looking at the people lurking in this thread it is obviously being viewed by those that don't tend to post.  It would be interesting to get their opinion.  Some of us are just set in our ways and who wants to hear from us all the time anyways. 

[Ron Alan]

More engines torn down than any other class and yet we still ignore ECUs.

I dont think this is ignored at all. I think the ability to easily tech is the issue. Without the knowledge to find a method I for one cant complain...without proof alterations exist throwing mud is just a mud ball fight no one wins. But I do agree this is an area that the potential to fudge is there more than likely?

[Jim Drago]

 

None of my posts in this thread are intended to be negative or complain...they are a simple effort to use facts to keep things moving forward. Though it is easy for many to scoff at Robs(black helicopter)post...his post is 100% valid. Agree or disagree as to where the current status of SM's PR lies...we all agree it does move around and we do have a reputation. IMO...we all want the class to be the best and understanding how we got here is paramount to achieving that goal!

 

 

Your post was a starting point and probably shouldn't have quoted you.. dont read too much into that.

 

Also dont read into my post that I believe all is well, we will never have another issue and no one is pushing the rules. People will always push the rules and we should always continue to check compliance to avoid what escalated to an arms war pre 2014 runoffs

[Richard Astacio]

Looking at the people lurking in this thread it is obviously being viewed by those that don't tend to post.  It would be interesting to get their opinion.  Some of us are just set in our ways and who wants to hear from us all the time anyways. 

I am not sure what to post to be honest. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt..Do I think some guys are cheating? To be honest I do not care....If they can sleep at night, then so be it.  

All I care about is improving and becoming the best driver I can be and I have aspiration of becoming a SM National champ or die trying : )

For the most part all the guys that are at the front always share information and are always eager to help new guys.

 

I was under East Street tent at Cota and I watched Jim's crew work and help other competitors cars throughout the weekend......I watched York set up Chris Haldeman suspension before his next race and he ended up winning the race. Chris also shared his data and video with us....what other class would do that??? 

 

I think when the competition is this fierce you are always trying to push the envelope...Some may agree some may not....I just concentrate on improving my driving skills. 

[Danica Davison]

That is a good outlook Richard.  I share a very similar one and I think most should as well.  It looks like you have shown great progress over the last year or so, and I am sure the attitude is a big contributor to your growth. Having a good attitude is very important to being successful in this class. I think guys that are struggling mentally, which definitely occurs in cycles for many people, have the tendency to overdrive, make mistakes, not prepare correctly, etc. ... which is the ultimate reason as to why they are not winning. In these cases, it is very easy to say, "well the car isn't there," or "I lost because another guy had a faster car", etc..  In the same way that it is similar to having a bad soccer game and blaming the ref for the loss, or whatever.

 

I always try to focus on my individual performance and try not to make excuses about the car, because I know there most likely aren't any issues with it. I always have the most fun when I feel good about my driving, no matter where I finish or who I beat/lose to. The closest I have come to a wining in a Super Tour  / Majors race is 7th/80 at Sebring this year and I definitely do not think I got beat by another car, I got beat by drivers. And man was that a fun weekend! Guys who finished in front of me (and behind me) are true wheelmen and I think having great racing like that with great drivers is way more important to me than winning races. I obviously could have driven better, but I was happy with my performance overall.  In my personal opinion, I think if everyone shares that outlook or something similar, everyone will enjoy this whole racing thing so much more. 

 

SM is the most competitive driver class there is, and everybody knows it, which is why I don't think we have a PR problem anymore. 

 

Shoot. There I go ranting again

[Cnj]

Looking at the people lurking in this thread it is obviously being viewed by those that don't tend to post.  It would be interesting to get their opinion.  Some of us are just set in our ways and who wants to hear from us all the time anyways.

I'll bite. I've just read the whole sequence of posts tonight.

OH. MY. GOD. We have got to lighten up!

I thought Jim posted a clever and funny advertisement. Smart enough that it hooked a few people. I respect others have different views, but I simply enjoyed that we can laugh at ourselves a little. Wish we did that some more.

That's my opinion MPR.

CNJ

[Jamz14]

I dont think this is ignored at all. I think the ability to easily tech is the issue. Without the knowledge to find a method I for one cant complain...without proof alterations exist throwing mud is just a mud ball fight know one wins. But I do agree this is an area that the potential to fudge is there more than likely?

Ok ignored is wrong word. Problem that isn't addressable.....better? As you pointed out, problems have been brought to light by other competitors. I have no evidence anyone is doing this. Nor do I suspect anyone in particular. But that unadressable part is the exact reason we should look more there.

My recommendation to try and fix this isnt based on my wise knowledge of the craft. It is based on walking the planet for half a century and my experience with people. If it can be leveraged, an ambitious person will.

[Jim Drago]

Ok ignored is wrong word. Problem that isn't addressable.....better? As you pointed out, problems have been brought to light by other competitors. I have no evidence anyone is doing this. Nor do I suspect anyone in particular. But that unadressable part is the exact reason we should look more there.

My recommendation to try and fix this isnt based on my wise knowledge of the craft. It is based on walking the planet for half a century and my experience with people. If it can be leveraged, an ambitious person will.

I domt know of a good way for SCCA or NASA to really check the computers at this point. When SCCA was checking 99 cars, Ryan at SCCA had a 99 miata and they tested at Prathers in his car down the street. The VVt cars present an entire set of problems with the immobilizer. I believe the  99-00  miata has 6 to 8 different part numbers for a manual and the 01-05 has about 25.  Short of checking the rev imiter and an obvious tampering with fuel curve it would be pretty tough IMO. I have a dyno chassis for a 99 and one for a VVT, we could check easily and if SCCA wanted we could/would but they will only want independent people testing. ONy option imo is to have three cars.. 99/00, 01/02 AND 03/05.. Or some serious help from Mazda.

I think the best way is still ecu swaps at bigger races. You can do this with VVT cars as well

[FTodaro]

I domt know of a good way for SCCA or NASA to really check the computers at this point. When SCCA was checking 99 cars, Ryan at SCCA had a 99 miata and they tested at Prathers in his car down the street. The VVt cars present an entire set of problems with the immobilizer. I believe the  99-00  miata has 6 to 8 different part numbers for a manual and the 01-05 has about 25.  Short of checking the rev imiter and an obvious tampering with fuel curve it would be pretty tough IMO. I have a dyno chassis for a 99 and one for a VVT, we could check easily and if SCCA wanted we could/would but they will only want independent people testing. ONy option imo is to have three cars.. 99/00, 01/02 AND 03/05.. Or some serious help from Mazda.

I think the best way is still ecu swaps at bigger races. You can do this with VVT cars as well

I really do not know if this is a problem, i think if you have any intention of delving into this you need Mazda to get involved. So unless we have some solid suspicion  of problems, i do not think they are going to unlock the key for us to get into their proprietary information.

[Jamz14]

If ECU swaps are doable then that is a solution that is doable. So allow swaps and relocates to make that easy. Spec a pigtail to avoid damaging harness pins.

 

I don't really know. Just know that the more difficult it is to check , the more likely something is going on there. Anyway. Thats my comment. Lunatic out.

[Ron Alan]

Jim...I remember a few years back you tested the manual 99 Federal ecu against a CA ecu and found no difference correct? Will all 99-00 manual ecu versions run any car? Do they all work the same at wide open throttle? Anyone have an idea on this?

[callumhay]

Looking at the people lurking in this thread it is obviously being viewed by those that don't tend to post.  It would be interesting to get their opinion.  Some of us are just set in our ways and who wants to hear from us all the time anyways. 

I think there are 2 ways to take the issues being discussed on the thread...both depend, I think,  what level of competition we are talking about. For the drivers that have a legitimate shot at the National Championship and are following the rules, it's probably highly annoying/exasperating to know that there are still creative ways to improve HP and not get caught.

As an observer who does not race at that level, all I can say is that I sympathize with the pain. I don't know what the solution is ..maybe hope your skills can overcome the HP deficit? For me (and this is the other way to look at the issue) I'm happy with a car that has legal HP as I'm going to have fun anyway. I know that there is someone out there with more skill, more money or time than me and it does not stop me from racing. I think that knowing the creative ways people are trying to get around the rules is good for the class because it's the only way there can be a discussion/solution as to what can be done about it. I didn't take any offense as to the way the topic was raised..thought it was kind of amusing.

 

Cal Hay

[Jim Drago]

I think there are 2 ways to take the issues being discussed on the thread...both depend, I think,  what level of competition we are talking about. For the drivers that have a legitimate shot at the National Championship and are following the rules, it's probably highly annoying/exasperating to know that there are still creative ways to improve HP and not get caught.

As an observer who does not race at that level, all I can say is that I sympathize with the pain. I don't know what the solution is ..maybe hope your skills can overcome the HP deficit? For me (and this is the other way to look at the issue) I'm happy with a car that has legal HP as I'm going to have fun anyway. I know that there is someone out there with more skill, more money or time than me and it does not stop me from racing. I think that knowing the creative ways people are trying to get around the rules is good for the class because it's the only way there can be a discussion/solution as to what can be done about it. I didn't take any offense as to the way the topic was raised..thought it was kind of amusing.

 

Cal Hay

The flip side is that currently the gains in the best possible programmed ECU are very small with allowance of timing and FP regulators.  I dont think it is worth losing any sleep over.  My car is likely to be pulled down pretty far in the very near future. It should show that what many feel is the best car in the country is getting there within the rules and with no reflashed ecu. 

 

 

Ron

The 99 ca vs fed computers are different and detectable on dyno.. but IMO not such a difference that require switching.  The Fed computer will run both cars or vice versa