18 replies to this topic

[Steve S.]

Earlier this week we sent an email to (60) SMSE competitors in the SEDiv surveying interest in changing the spec tire for the class in SEDiv from the Hoosier SM7 to the Toyo RA-1.

 

The DC Region has used the Toyo for their SSM class for several years as part of their cost-saving formula (the other part being a dyno verified rear wheel HP limit). That class has done very well in the MARRS series, and there are usually 40-50 cars per weekend.

 

The idea is to introduce that “harder tire” element of the cost savings approach to SMSE in the SEDiv, to similarly reduce racing cost and continue to grow participation.

 

The email asked the SMSE competitor to respond as follows:

 

Yes, I support changing the spec tire for SMSE to the Toyo RA-1

 

No, I do not support changing the spec tire for SMSE

 

I would support changing the spec tire, but propose another alternative _______

 

Responses are still coming in, but we are posting here in the event that we missed some competitors or the possibility that the email was not received or diverted to spam, etc. We also thought this would be a good platform for others in the SM community to comment on the change. (That said, we do want the competitors to make the decision).

 

The final tally will be emailed to the competitors and posted here. If a strong majority approve, the next step will be to submit the proposal to the SEDiv RE’s and the other planning committees. 

 

TIA

 

Steve Strickland

SARRC Committee

[Johnny D]

No dog in this hunt...

I would support changing the spec tire, but propose another alternative _TOYO RR______

 

Last forever, 25+ HC, really until they cord.

No shaving

NASA uses them in SM / crossover

Great all around tire/value.

 

Just sayin,

J~

[LarryKing]

I've been relying on Hoosier take-offs. Does anyone sell Toyo take-offs? If not my tire bill goes up. I vote nope.

[ner88]

I'm sure used Toyos will be available in time..........

 

Has to be the Toyo RR..........

 

also, need to be sure we can have tire support at the track.

[Parity]

No dog in this hunt...

I would support changing the spec tire, but propose another alternative _TOYO RR______

 

Last forever, 25+ HC, really until they cord.

No shaving

NASA uses them in SM / crossover

Great all around tire/value.

 

Just sayin,

J~

This but I do have a dog in the fight...my wallet

[Danica Davison]

I think the Toyo RR is a good idea. Even if you were to buy one set of Toyo RRs, they could last you multiple weekends and still be competitive. I ran on toyos for the first time this weekend at sebring, and they felt the same from 5 heat cycles from the beginning of the weekend ... to the 13th by the end of the weekend. They could easily last you 4-5 weekends and still bring home a W.

[luvin_the_rings]

No dog in this fight either, but we run the Toyo RR in NASA and its fantastic.  We rely on RR take off's as well.  Anywhere there is a spec tire being run, there will always be take-offs available.  

 

We use take-offs for all testing days, and sometimes races awe well.  We like to qualify on the new tire.  

 

Also, with the RR I have not noticed a significant durability difference after a scrub and sit session of 24 hours.  They wear at the same rate from beginning to end.  

 

For the RA-1 I have never used that tire so I cannot comment. 

 

-Alex

[David S.]

I run in SSM and wish we ran the RR. I think it's more expensive to buy a RA-1 and get it shaved down than it is to just buy an RR (haven't checked in awhile though). Not to mention the hassle of getting them to/from whoever is gonna shave it. I guess it does support the local race shops though so it really doesn't matter too much. It'd be nice to spec both so you could have a full tread set of RA-1's for the wet.

[Mike Collins]

A shaved RR is faster than a new RR. All I'm saying...

[David S.]

Well then there goes that idea. Should have known it was too easy.

[Rob Burgoon]

How much faster?

[Steve S.]

Thanks for the comments. Point taken about buying takeoff's, but it all comes down to the cost per heat cycle. Buy a takeoff, pay less, get fewer heat cycles. Buy a new (harder) tire, pay more up front, get a longer replacement cycle. Worst case scenario it's a wash (unless your takeoff's are very cheap). Best case (our goal) is reduced tire costs for a season of racing. 

 

We are not necessarily married to the RA-1, suggested it because of the DC Region's success with the tire and the support of App Tire, I don't know that they go all the way down to the FL Region, so support c/be an issue down there.

 

All that said, the support does not seem to be there for a change at this time. SMSE usually runs in the same group as SM, and the speed difference is an issue for some of the competitors. 

 

The door is open until the end of the week for more comments- stand by.

 

Steve S

[Danny Steyn]

 

All that said, the support does not seem to be there for a change at this time. SMSE usually runs in the same group as SM, and the speed difference is an issue for some of the competitors. 

 

Steve S

 

Steve. At several tracks the TOYO RR gives very similar lap times to the Hoosier SM7 with a lot more Heat Cycles. Even at Barber which should favor the softer stickier Hoosier, my TOYO Lap Record is almost a second faster than my Hoosier time, but ambient and track conditions that day were favorable.

 

At every track that I have raced recently with the TOYOS, I have compared mid-corner min-speeds to the Hoosiers, and at the most they are around 1mph down in the very fast corners (90mph+) and almost identical in corners slower than that. On the straights they might actually roll slightly faster.

 

If the class allowed us to run TOYOS and HOOSIERS, I would happily compete in regional races on TOYOS, as I would get more bang for my buck and I suspect I would only be lapping a tenth or two slower. But at the Majors I would definitely run the Hoosiers as I would need that tenth or two in these exceptionally competitive fields, where often the top 10 are within less than a second.

 

In terms of rain tires the Hoosier H2O has no equal - in pouring rain is at least 10 seconds a lap faster than unshaved RA1's, and makes the average driver feel like a rainmeister, but once you have run them once, they are test tires. Personally I wish we all ran the RA1's for rain tires as you can get many seasons of racing from a set of RA1's.

 

Just thought you might like another viewpoint

[Danica Davison]

 On the straights they might actually roll slightly faster.
 

 

I am not a tire expert .. but aren't the RR's like 5 pounds heaver that the Hoosiers?  So don't they roll slightly slower?

[Johnny D]

I am not a tire expert .. but aren't the RR's like 5 pounds heaver that the Hoosiers?  So don't they roll slightly slower?

 

FYI, the size on the side wall says the same on both tire but the Hoosiers have a bigger dia. and are wider. Could be considered harder on the hubs.

I think Tire Rack has size data maybe weight too.

 

Let me post some data.

J~

[Johnny D]

                              TOYO              Hoosier

 

Tire weight             20lbs                 17lbs

Overall Dia.            23"                     22.8"

Section width         8.5"                      8.7"

Tread width            7.6"                      8"

 

Under spec

https://www.tirerack...romCompare1=yes

 

https://philstireser...osier-A7-R7.pdf

[Steve S.]

Just an update on this proposal, we closed the survey and sent a confirmation to the competitors that based on the number of responses and votes thereto we will not be changing the SEDiv SMSE tire spec.

 

The responses break down as follows:

 

n  We had a survey base of (60) SMSE SEDiv drivers via email and the post on the Mazdaracers website

 

n  There was a 40% response rate (25 responses), so the two-thirds threshold was not met

 

n  Of the 25 responses, over half (13) were firmly in the “no change” category

 

n   The remaining responses were OK with a change but there was a significant variance in the preferred tire (i.e. Toyo RA-1 vs. Toyo R888, etc.) or they wanted other changes in addition to the tire that were essentially beyond the scope of the survey

 

To summarize, we didn’t hear from enough competitors and the majority of those that did respond do not support the change.

 

The most common reason given for the “no” votes was that SMSE is still grouped with SM in most Regions, and those drivers were concerned about the potential speed differential and lack of competitiveness within that group overall. As noted farther up in this thread there were also a number of drivers who buy Hoosier takeoff’s and felt that was an adequate cost control.

 

This essentially settles the issue but we could look at it again someday if SMSE fields continue to grow and/ or the interest level changes. 

 

Appreciate the responses here and via email. 

 

Steve S

[Steve S.]

Steve. At several tracks the TOYO RR gives very similar lap times to the Hoosier SM7 with a lot more Heat Cycles. Even at Barber which should favor the softer stickier Hoosier, my TOYO Lap Record is almost a second faster than my Hoosier time, but ambient and track conditions that day were favorable.

 

At every track that I have raced recently with the TOYOS, I have compared mid-corner min-speeds to the Hoosiers, and at the most they are around 1mph down in the very fast corners (90mph+) and almost identical in corners slower than that. On the straights they might actually roll slightly faster.

 

If the class allowed us to run TOYOS and HOOSIERS, I would happily compete in regional races on TOYOS, as I would get more bang for my buck and I suspect I would only be lapping a tenth or two slower. But at the Majors I would definitely run the Hoosiers as I would need that tenth or two in these exceptionally competitive fields, where often the top 10 are within less than a second.

 

In terms of rain tires the Hoosier H2O has no equal - in pouring rain is at least 10 seconds a lap faster than unshaved RA1's, and makes the average driver feel like a rainmeister, but once you have run them once, they are test tires. Personally I wish we all ran the RA1's for rain tires as you can get many seasons of racing from a set of RA1's.

 

Just thought you might like another viewpoint

 

Danny, meant to reply last week, this was an interesting perspective. We also had some interest on the survey in the Toyo RR, but as noted above the "no change" votes carried the day.

 

Getting more bang for the buck was goal here, but based on this exercise I'm doubtful enough SM drivers would be in favor of a choice of two tires. 

[Waterboy]

The most common reason given for the “no” votes was that SMSE is still grouped with SM in most Regions, and those drivers were concerned about the potential speed differential and lack of competitiveness within that group

Steve S

Now that's funny. That is the whole reason the class was created, because of the lack of competiveness