98 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

I assumed that was me.. When in doubt, it is either me, you or Scheifller

Yeah, I’m OK with that I guess but I’m lost. Here’s this long coherent post which I assume was copy-paste from somewhere, then bang, we’re back to the Bench we know and love but don’t understand. Good to know he’s found a new question to obsess over though.

[Ron Alan]

Late to the shave party!(dont let your mind wander)

 

Northern California NASA and SCCA each averaged about 40 SM cars per event this year. NASA obviously runs RR and the SCCA region is about 80-90% on RR. I was at every event for both except the few that fell on the same weekend. I can honestly say I never heard of 1 person running shaved tires in either organization. In fact...I heard way more stories about drivers feeling just as competitive on 12 cycle tires as they did on stickers. 

No doubt many can argue the theoretical difference between the benefits of a 2/32 shaved tire vs a full tread...but I think in terms of actual performance, 95% couldn't pick up any difference in their data all things being equal(which of course they never are!)The best of the best will have a preference but for the rest...Mount those bitches and run them till they cord(or close)! Your budget will love you! 

[LarryKing]

Ron, what do the 10-20% run at SCCA regionals? Do people show up on sticker Hoosiers and kill the love?

[Nathan Pring]

I'll be running the Toyos for sure. I've been running them anyway for all the practice sessions to offset the cost of Hoosiers since they last twice as long, and I definitely wont be shaving them!

[Tom Sager]

Well, with the West coast and Southeast in SCCA adopting widespread use of Toyo's and some of the top dogs in our class also wanting tire rule/choice revisions, it's pretty clear we need a change that will help the wallet. 

[Jim Drago]

 

No doubt many can argue the theoretical difference between the benefits of a 2/32 shaved tire vs a full tread...but I think in terms of actual performance, 95% couldn't pick up any difference in their data all things being equal(which of course they never are!)The best of the best will have a preference but for the rest...Mount those bitches and run them till they cord(or close)! Your budget will love you! 

 

I would agree with that... But that is no different than 2-3 hp. You will run the same lap time and hard to see in data.. but everyone wants the 2-3    It all depends on competition level and size of the and stature of the event. Small event no shaving ... championship event shaving comes in.   It is a sliding scale. 

[FTodaro]

If we could only get Toyo to  cut down the mold on the RR make the tire a 3/16th tire you would not need to shave it. The current tire is to fact, tall and heavy.

[Jim Drago]

If we could only get Toyo to  cut down the mold on the RR make the tire a 3/16th tire you would not need to shave it. The current tire is to fact, tall and heavy.

It is 3/16 6/32

You mean 3/32, dam attorneys never could do fractions.. just  1/3 or 40%

 

However I agree, a 3/32 molded RR would be an awesome tire. Probably still a 15-25  session tire. Very little to no advantage to shave it, just run it down some

[Parity]

I think it speaks volumes that increasingly folks are foregoing points in SM to run SMT so I really doubt most regional guys are going to shave tires. If majors guys want to shave, go at it. We still will benefit at the regional level and even if us Larry's run the occasional Majors we can always follow suit if we think it would help.

[Ron Alan]

Ron, what do the 10-20% run at SCCA regionals? Do people show up on sticker Hoosiers and kill the love?

SFR SCCA has 3 classes...

 

SSM(sealed)...RR and RA1

SMT(Toyo)...RR and RA1

SM...SM7...this class is a hold over from the first change to Hoosiers and then the region went back to Toyo(by demand). But there were a few that demanded the region offer the ability to run the Hoosiers to burn up stock. Well, the stock never ended because these few people found that Hoosier gave away 3 tires per race at a regional weekend! So a very small few have kept the SM class alive because they are running free tires! And the of course when a Major or HST comes around they are ready!

 

Unfortunately Toyo isn't partnered with SCCA so there is no contingency. 

 

Our NASA regionals on the other hand...Toyo pays a total of $1075 PER RACE(2 races per weekend) to 10 drivers in each race! $2150 per weekend! This is given in "Toyo bucks" which can be redeemed toward your next tire purchase(for those who haven't heard of this). Of course this is paid in every NASA region across the country(BTW...those amounts are paid with 20+cars in a race)

[Ron Alan]

It is 3/16 6/32

You mean 3/32, dam attorneys never could do fractions.. just  1/3 or 40%

 

However I agree, a 3/32 molded RR would be an awesome tire. Probably still a 15-25  session tire. Very little to no advantage to shave it, just run it down some

I too agree! But to repeat, so few can actually quantify the difference...the stock thickness of 4/32 is just a win win IMO!

 

God knows the SM7 is wider than the Toyo...but it is certainly lighter...maybe 1 or 2 lbs? I'd be curious to understand why? 

 

Also...just a bit of info for those who haven't run these tires or are just starting. Tire wear(cycles)is a function of the driver! Faster the driver...less cycles! I have seen a RR cord in 12 cycles...top driver, tire on same corner start to finish(rear)!

But on that corded run(other 3 tires were getting close)...he still ran within .5 seconds of his best times(It was a good morning!)...point being..."Heat Cycling" out is very minimal from everything I've seen. Ever heard of someone cording a Hoosier??

[Caveman-kwebb99]

SFR SCCA has 3 classes...

SSM(sealed)...RR and RA1
SMT(Toyo)...RR and RA1
SM...SM7...this class is a hold over from the first change to Hoosiers and then the region went back to Toyo(by demand). But there were a few that demanded the region offer the ability to run the Hoosiers to burn up stock. Well, the stock never ended because these few people found that Hoosier gave away 3 tires per race at a regional weekend! So a very small few have kept the SM class alive because they are running free tires! And the of course when a Major or HST comes around they are ready!

Unfortunately Toyo isn't partnered with SCCA so there is no contingency.

Our NASA regionals on the other hand...Toyo pays a total of $1075 PER RACE(2 races per weekend) to 10 drivers in each race! $2150 per weekend! This is given in "Toyo bucks" which can be redeemed toward your next tire purchase(for those who haven't heard of this). Of course this is paid in every NASA region across the country(BTW...those amounts are paid with 20+cars in a race)

Unfortunately inany regions that is a reward for racing in a group of thunder roadsters, Honda challenge, and who knows what other classes...

It's nice to get the contingency but it's nicer to race an all sm race.

Texas has that figured out thanks to Will good contingency and a sm only race group. Can't say that for every region though.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I too agree! But to repeat, so few can actually quantify the difference...the stock thickness of 4/32 is just a win win IMO!

God knows the SM7 is wider than the Toyo...but it is certainly lighter...maybe 1 or 2 lbs? I'd be curious to understand why?

Also...just a bit of info for those who haven't run these tires or are just starting. Tire wear(cycles)is a function of the driver! Faster the driver...less cycles! I have seen a RR cord in 12 cycles...top driver, tire on same corner start to finish(rear)!
But on that corded run(other 3 tires were getting close)...he still ran within .5 seconds of his best times(It was a good morning!)...point being..."Heat Cycling" out is very minimal from everything I've seen. Ever heard of someone cording a Hoosier??

In the good old days when mid Ohio liked old tires I corded some sm6 Hoosiers.

[Ron Alan]

Unfortunately inany regions that is a reward for racing in a group of thunder roadsters, Honda challenge, and who knows what other classes...

It's nice to get the contingency but it's nicer to race an all sm race.

Texas has that figured out thanks to Will good contingency and a sm only race group. Can't say that for every region though.

Not a matter of figuring out...a matter of numbers! And then a matter of how many other groups that region is running and can it pay for everything and still make a profit! Dont get me wrong...I'm with you on selfishly thinking SM rules and should have its own run group period!

We run with spec E30 in Norcal and frankly it only bugged me for about 2 events! Now I dont even notice and actually enjoy when the lead pack comes up on a slow E30 or god forbid a really slow SM It just adds a real race dimension that forces drivers to think! Pro endurance racing with all the mixed classes is fascinating to watch! Maybe why I'm drawn to the 25HR each year...god help me!

[Bench Racer]

It just adds a real race dimension that forces drivers to think! Pro endurance racing with all the mixed classes is fascinating to watch! Maybe why I'm drawn to the 25HR each year...god help me!

Mr. Alan, WOW, great start for the weekend , WE concisely agree on something (as will Steve & Jim, me thinks) which is normally part of road racing, except of course within the SCCA. The key to multi class racing is RACECRAFT. I really hate to say it, the SCCA Production car classes each want their own race group, GTL, H, F, E & other than now & then at the Runoffs the Prod races are single file prades. 

[Jim Drago]

Mr. Alan, WOW, great start for the weekend , WE concisely agree on something (as will Steve & Jim, me thinks) which is normally part of road racing, except of course within the SCCA. The key to multi class racing is RACECRAFT. I really hate to say it, the SCCA Production car classes each want their own race group, GTL, H, F, E & other than now & then at the Runoffs the Prod races are single file prades. 

I like the strategy on pit stops, fuel economy ,drivers and all that, but as far as o track, not so much. Many should not even be on the track.  Slow is not the problem.. slow, unaware and completely unpredictable is a problem.  You can think for days, but if people are new and unpredictable, it doesn't matter. 

[Bench Racer]

slow, unaware and completely unpredictable is a problem.  You can think for days, but if people are new and unpredictable, it doesn't matter. 

[Ron Alan]

I like the strategy on pit stops, fuel economy ,drivers and all that, but as far as o track, not so much. Many should not even be on the track.  Slow is not the problem.. slow, unaware and completely unpredictable is a problem.  You can think for days, but if people are new and unpredictable, it doesn't matter. 

Agree with this 100% when it comes to unaware and unpredictable. But I would distinguish my feeling between "Pro" races and "amateur". There should be a level of confidence a "gentleman" driver in a pro series should have...no matter how much money he/she brings in! In amateur racing frankly there has to be a little more acceptance of the unaware/unpredictable driver...everyone starts somewhere! In a race like the 25HR where there really is all levels of skill and knowledge...ironically it is often the good but very impatient drivers in fast cars the cause the most problems!

That said...there is a limit when all racing orgs need to step in and say no more until there is improvement. Our last regional race we had an E30 BMW that was lapped twice by most of the field in a 25 minute race  It will be awhile before he is back on grid. 

[MazdaSteve]

Toyo Spec Tire for MX-5 Cup:

 

https://racer.com/20...mx-5-challenge/