98 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

...

That's funny that will not discourage anyone IMO

In fact, it may just encourage a few more to justify a higher tire budget. What WOULD help IMO, knowing Jim will disagree, is to eliminate SM tire contingencies altogether. In all the debates on the subject over the years I don’t recall a single cogent and even remotely convincing argument in favor of them in a spec class over just lowering prices. And hearing that Toyo will match the Hoosier plan just tempers my enthusiasm for the T class experiment..

[TylerQuance]

Whoa man... that's my racing livelihood you're talking about. Be cool.

 

Do you think more people would come out and race more if tires were $30 cheaper each? No.

Do you think a group of people out there would race less if there were no contingencies? Yes.

 

[infamousjim]

Duh, there will always be people who outspend everyone else and do stuff like shave brand new tires. However, Toyos would save the majority of people (mid packers and back packers) a ton of money... possibly grow the class some more by slashing the weekend budget for many. Isn't that a good thing? 

[Steve Scheifler]

Whoa man... that's my racing livelihood you're talking about. Be cool.

Do you think more people would come out and race more if tires were $30 cheaper each? No.
Do you think a group of people out there would race less if there were no contingencies? Yes.

The first isn’t the point at all. It’s about simple logic and fairness. The second is not any more likely IMO, and certainly not a compelling argument for the program. Hey, let’s tax everyone and then pay it all back to a select few of the fastest (and frequently best funded). Do you really think there aren’t guys giving up because it seems hopeless to try and compete with someone running multiple sets of stickers each weekend, partly at their expense? Certainly as likely as someone at the front racing less because they don’t get freebies, and their entry fees are the same. Sorry, I can’t side with someone who’s only reason for staying home is that they can’t be subsidized by the vast majority of the rest who show up and pay their own way. Give me a friggin break!!

[Bench Racer]

We need a better tire or a tire rule limiting the use of tires (or both).  SEDIV is simply responding to the needs of their "constituents".  Heck Autobahn Country Club which has a 12 or more race series during the year limits their wealthy member/competitors to something like 4 sets for the entire season including qualifying and races if I understand it correctly.   

WASH, RINSE & REPEAT!!!    Are we racing only to prosper the tire company.    Or do we want more of the class to 

[FTodaro]

Never seen shaved Toyo RR's in NASA NE regionals

Its not rampant in the Great lakes region, but i do it.

[Dave D.]

Never seen shaved Toyo RR's in NASA NE regionals

That's because we do it Brazilian style.......................We WAX them!!

[infamousjim]

That's because we do it Brazilian style.......................We WAX them!!

 

Do you know how I know you're a dad? 

[Dave D.]

Do you know how I know you're a dad? 

Is it my flip phone and belt holder for it? Or my impressive collection of cardigan sweaters??

[gerglmuff2]

Whoa man... that's my racing livelihood you're talking about. Be cool.

 

Do you think more people would come out and race more if tires were $30 cheaper each? No.

Do you think a group of people out there would race less if there were no contingencies? Yes.

 

i mean 140 dollar a tire compared to 170 dollars a tire, yes, that would help people race more, for sure, 100% 

and more importantly, it would help the whole pack do more races, rather than help the guys who already are running at the front, afford to run at the front more. 

having won some contingency tires, man it is nice. but its also only helping the front guys keep on gapping the back guys. its doing nothing to help the class. 

[infamousjim]

i mean 140 dollar a tire compared to 170 dollars a tire, yes, that would help people race more, for sure, 100% 

and more importantly, it would help the whole pack do more races, rather than help the guys who already are running at the front, afford to run at the front more. 

having won some contingency tires, man it is nice. but its also only helping the front guys keep on gapping the back guys. 

 

Has it been said somewhere that if they cut contingencies they'd be able to charge that much less per tire?  If so, that is an interesting argument. Hell, I buy scrub tires and make sure to claim every penny of contingency but know plenty of top finishers that don't care enough to spend the 10 mins and claim their free tires.

 

I'm also a fan of tossing tires randomly at people lower down in the finishing... ie payout 1-5 but also give tires for 10, 15, etc 

[Danica Davison]

They are going to beat the People's Champ even if they have to pull their plates and run on Hoosiers to do it.   

 

Still no chance

[Jim Drago]

In fact, it may just encourage a few more to justify a higher tire budget. What WOULD help IMO, knowing Jim will disagree, is to eliminate SM tire contingencies altogether. In all the debates on the subject over the years I don’t recall a single cogent and even remotely convincing argument in favor of them in a spec class over just lowering prices. And hearing that Toyo will match the Hoosier plan just tempers my enthusiasm for the T class experiment..

First, I have always been told that the contingency tires come from the advertising budget and don't effect the price of the tires? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but what I have been told numerous times? 

 

Second, the tires are too expensive! They were far less when we started, I believe $138? Some one can correct me if wrong. The reasoning i get back is well look how much you would be paying if it was the R7 and not the sm7... I really don't care about that and it is a weak argument. There should have been clauses in the contract to hold the price stable.   If I were king for a day, our next contract would be a $125 tire bc I believe we have the buying power to support it.

 

IMO, there is no reason the tires are not still under $150 each and a contingency in place.   I do not believe the price would discount $30 plus a tire with no contingency, if it did. I would support that as it would average out pretty close for me personally and be better for the class.   I believe it would be more like $8 a tire less.  If that is the case, I prefer the contingency.  Jim

[Tom Hampton]

First, I have always been told that the contingency tires come from the advertising budget and don't effect the price of the tires? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but what I have been told numerous times? 


IMO, there is no reason the tires are not still under $150 each and a contingency in place.   I do not believe the price would discount $30 plus a tire with no contingency, if it did. I would support that as it would average out pretty close for me personally and be better for the class.   I believe it would be more like $8 a tire less.  If that is the case, I prefer the contingency.  Jim

Actually, from my point of view working in a large corporation, working closely with finance...it does make sense to me that the contingency tires would come out of the marketing budget.  That's eactly where it would come from where I work.  Essentially that's what it is...a marketing program.  Squint your eyes, look sideways at it, and you can almost convince yourself that we will all go out and buy street tires of the same brand we race on.  "Win on Sunday...sell on Monday."  The only thing worse than a lawyer, is a marketeer!

 

We can always go bacl to the R888.  Its $131 / tire from tirerack.  :-)  I started SM just as y'all were leaving the R888 for the shaved RA1.  But, I lurked in a lot of those threads before buying my first car.  Anyone wanna go back? 

 

Otherwise, there seems to be a bit of price fixing going on in the "SM sized track tire" market. 

[LarryKing]

 

Hey, let’s tax everyone and then pay it all back to a select few of the fastest

Have you ever considered a career in politics?

[LarryKing]

 

I started SM just as y'all were leaving the R888 for the shaved RA1

The RA1 was the original spec tire, long before the R888 came along, and actually worked pretty well for the class. I still remember the paddock arguments when the switch to Hoosier was being considered.

 

 

The only thing worse than a lawyer, is a marketer!

They're both pikers next to lobbyists.

[Steve Scheifler]

Larry, I think the “original” spec tire was in fact Hoosier, you just don’t go back far enough.

[Tom Hampton]

maybe it was really a round limestone rock:  "Spec Flinstone"

[Steve Scheifler]

First, I have always been told that the contingency tires come from the advertising budget and don't effect the price of the tires? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but what I have been told numerous times?

Second, the tires are too expensive! They were far less when we started, I believe $138? Some one can correct me if wrong. The reasoning i get back is well look how much you would be paying if it was the R7 and not the sm7... I really don't care about that and it is a weak argument. There should have been clauses in the contract to hold the price stable. If I were king for a day, our next contract would be a $125 tire bc I believe we have the buying power to support it.

IMO, there is no reason the tires are not still under $150 each and a contingency in place. I do not believe the price would discount $30 plus a tire with no contingency, if it did. I would support that as it would average out pretty close for me personally and be better for the class. I believe it would be more like $8 a tire less. If that is the case, I prefer the contingency. Jim

I’m very familiar with the shell games that separate pots of money in corporations. Bottom line, literally, not our problem. They want our business or they don’t. If they do they will make it work.

I agree that $30 sounds way high, but even if it’s only $8 that’s per tire, every tire, for everyone. Of course you would stick with status quo, it’s clearly in your favor, it just isn’t fair.

I can all but guarantee you that the contract includes price increase limits, and have little doubt that they have been maxed out each year. I haven’t compared to the inflation rate but I’d wager a tire that the increases are higher. That is probably justified by the big “discount” relative to the equivalent non SM which like most Hoosier road race tires are obscenely overpriced compared to some of their other tires and tires from other manufacturers. They can get that in a free market when their tires outperform the competition, and pay contingencies as part of their marketing, but they have no competition for our business and their faster tires don’t do us any good.

[LarryKing]

 

Larry, I think the “original” spec tire was in fact Hoosier, you just don’t go back far enough.

I only go back to 2002, the first year for SM in what is now the GreatLakes Division (originally CENDIV Area4), so my experience is only in that division and for the first year the spec tire was open (I ran the Kumho VictoRacer, which was an OK tire), then it was the RA1 for a year or two, then it was open again (for regional competition). I have no idea what the regional/divisional rule is now for Greatlakes as I moved south several years ago but I think it's the spec Hoosier.

 

I'll admit my memory of specifics 18 years ago can be a little foggy.