226 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Just curious in the video he said Todd was more vocal, not sure about what if anything.

 

What's Todd's take on this ?

 

J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Just curious in the video he said Todd was more vocal, not sure about what if anything.

 

What's Todd's take on this ?

 

J~

Todd responded to a post he made in another thread a while back that what FC is doing on the shocks is "Illegal" 

[Johnny D]

Todd responded to a post he made in another thread a while back that what FC is doing on the shocks is "Illegal" 

 

thanks

 

J~

[gerglmuff2]

 A few things.. 

 

Full disclosure:  I have run bone stock shocks from 2006-2015. I tried shocks revalved from a few vendors( not Fat Cat) given to me during that time and All SUCKED!  Lots of the new shocks were all over the place. I found someone I felt was knowledgeable and honest to send me a balanced set, NOT modified but were rebuilt with factory unmodified parts and all balanced and tested the same. I sent them in for testing AT SCCA and the curves are the same as stock, they passed. They passed again at a random compliance test at a super tour event.  I have run them in 2016-17 with no issues. 

 

On why,  I assume SMAC felt there was a problem and decided to change something which is what they should do. However, I think the current proposal is a VERY bad idea.  Asking John Bauer to look at a graph "shapes" basically and making a judgement call is not a good idea. Especially when we aren't using numbers and his decision is not appealable. The problem as described to me is that at higher inches per second testing the stock shocks are all over the place and they were unable to come up with a spec to encompass all, but the curves were similar.  I have no issue with people rebuilding the shocks, but IMO we should not be allowed to change the internals or modify parts. If we are no longer allowed to open, then I will run what they say as I can get there buying a few sets and testing them. 

 

As far as the video above.. What a condescending fluff piece... Obviously Shaikh has no clue what the members of this class want and he wants to sell his shock service which I don't have a problem with.  However, his claims are exaggerated, grossly exaggerated IMO.  I heard the same claims from Bernie at Stewart when I told him his shocks were terrible in my car. "I have been getting nothing but people telling me how great these shocks are"  My answer and unfortunately what I still believe, most in this class, yes MOST can't tell the difference and if something is "supposed" to be better and they paid a good biot of money for it... All of a sudden,  it is better, at least in their mind.

 

The 1 second a lap claim...   

Well p1-2 in qualifying this year in the biggest race EVER were both cars that I had built, both cars had out of the box NEVER touched or rebuilt shocks on them. If these or Any shocks provided a 1 sec per lap advantage, we would ALL have them even at $5000 a set. It would also show up BIG TIME. Does anyone stop and listen for a second and just think how silly these claims are? Especially when the top 15 cars were within a second? Or perhaps Chris and Preston would have had an additional second on the field if they ran those shocks?

 

Shaihk did a set of shocks for me for my 2002 STL Miata and IMO, they cost me the Runoffs win in 2013. I burned the tires off a miata in 3 laps.. At Road America no less! I had the lightest "handling car" at a track that doesn't wear tires.. yet I burned through mine in three laps and the heavy FWD civic and RX8 did not.  I probably just don't know how to properly set up or drive a miata. Had I gone back and just run out of the box Billsteins I feel I would have a VERY good shot at the win and had I put real shocks on the car, IMO I would have won.  In all fairness to Shaikh, I should have put more time in testing and possibly sending back for different valving, but we were out of time.  But his first shot at these was way, way off, which was surprised me with his 'expertise and knowledge", the end result was a shock far worse than i sent off to be modified. 

 

So to the demeaning tone taken in the videos where I feel the entire class was being spoken down to by a self proclaimed expert who knows little of our class or racing in general.

 

I offer this challenge.. 

At ANY Super Tour test event test day in the 18 season... 

 

You pick any SM driver of the top 25 in supertour points in 2017..

We install the best shocks you can build that pass the current spec

We run two sessions on your shocks... two sessions on stock shocks..

No suspension or set up changes other than correcting toe.

 

If your shocks are faster by 1.0 second plus relative to the field average ( temp and track compensation)  I'll pay you $5000, if they aren't you pay me $5000.00 and look at how many shock rebuilds you will sell. 

 

You can structure the rules however you like as long as they encompass the general feel of what I mentioned above.. I'll provide all the labor and scales to verify set up and can give a list of drivers that would be more than willing to drive in this test. 

 

The entire shock deal is being blown out of proportion IMO 

I hope this challenge was not directed at me. I am not a customer, nor representative, nor even a FCM "eat, pray, love" shock proponent. FCM is simply the most outspoken re-valver out there and thus the easiest to quote in a discussion thread on the topic. 

as far as my own position, as stated, on the rules, it seems to me that a better way to write the rule would be have an upper AND lower limit to shock forces rather than a vague and unenforceable "as it comes from mazda/bilstein" type rule. if bilstein cannot provide a stock shock in that range, then we have bigger problems. 

as far as how much shocks effect lap times and FCM's claims? there are probably some people who do see 1 sec improvements. but they are probably not at the tip of the pointy end at runoffs drivers. great drivers i believe adjust themselves to the setup the car, and drive the car playing to its advantages and its setup. folks who don't have that flexibility tend to not be consistently at the pointy end of things. so by and large i think its pretty crazy to make claims like FCM has, or expect that bolting on FCM shocks would just drop your lap time by a second. 

I could see how some valving changes could improve both the feel and some folks lap-times though. and i could see in road racing that is often on the curbing specifically how lower rebound damping could help.

how much? dunno, im a newbie at road racing. its promising to see that national level guys self report running out of the box shocks. give hope to us regional and local guys just getting into the game though. 

 

[Tom Sager]

There will be a decent business in testing shocks over the next several months.  Who's got a shock dyno? 

[Todd Lamb]

Modifying the shocks in any way, shape or form, has been, and currently is, illegal. I will do my best to make sure it remains that way.

 

If anyone can point out to me where in the GCR is says you are allowed to modify the shocks, I would be happy to reconsider. Also, while you're looking, point out where a shock spec is referenced in the GCR.

 

The SMAC has reviewed a lot of shock data. We even reviewed data from Runoffs. Side note, there were 2 cars in the LCQ that had modified illegal shocks. Without any wording in the GCR, nothing was done. Thus we have added the new wording about shock modifications, more to clarify it is not legal and give tech the distinct ability to act on revalved shocks, not to suddenly make revalved shocks illegal. From the data it is quite clear which shocks have been modified and which haven't. No spec/numbers needed to see the difference.

 

Don't be surprised to see some shocks impounded and sent to Bilstein for internal checks in 2018.

 

As for Fat Cat - he's doing his best to convince the SMAC (and you all) that you all must run revalved shocks in the name of safety, the ability to go faster (ummm spec class?), and so you don't get too tired behind the wheel. Oh, and guess who he wants the sole source to be? We aren't taking the bait, and you shouldn't either.

[davew]

I agree with everything Jim said. I also tested the supposed "special" shocks a few years ago. No body liked them. Since then I buy Bilsteins right from the company, open the box and put them on. 

 

If we can keep the info flowing that there is no advantage to spending the money, we can eliminate the demand, and the supply will dry up.

 

Dave

[Jim Drago]

 

Don't be surprised to see some shocks impounded and sent to Bilstein for internal checks in 2018.

 

 

IMO, that is the best answer.

Hand a competitor a new shock and send theirs off to Billstein.  For what we pay in compliance checks, they could send 10-20 shocks off EASILY and this way the competitor is not out a shock to race or drive home with

Jim 

[dstevens]

my personal take on it, is that SCCA already has a spec for shock forces. if they want to make re valving illegal, a better plan is to simply tighten the shock specs, rather than mandate "as delivered" but thats just my simple man's opinion. 

 

Welcome to the world of production based spec parts.       You'll find the same sorts of tolerances in all forms of racing that employ mass produced spec parts.  Circle track, off road, drags, the whole lot.  Until you start using high tolerance, race specific parts you'll have variances like that.  No disrespect intended but the feeling you get when you are running tuned shocks on your track car is probably more mental that any sort of performance advantage.  Hang out for a while, learn who the players are and you'll start to see what the agendas from some are.  Many here, most I say are pretty straight shooters.  I see the Fat Cat guys wanting to sell more product than anything.   Don't be impressed by a guy trying to sell you snake oil with squiggly curves.  Shock dynos don't race cars.  For the curves to be relevant in the real world there would need to be some testing with a pro caliber driver and crew with the appropriate data and data geeks.  The shock dyno tells you the variance of the particular part and not how that impacts the whole enchilada.  

[LarryKing]

The shocks aren't being modified - they're being "blueprinted" - a standard Spec Miata practice - ask anyone.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The shocks aren't being modified - they're being "blueprinted" - a standard Spec Miata practice - ask anyone.

No they are being modified... Watch video he is drilling out a part and changing a shim, but don't worry it's alot safer for you then a stock shock and you will go 1 second faster, I think he is just being conservative... Probably easily a 2 second advantage and probably why I always not winning enough races withy PRO motor.

[EMatoy]

I am for a change to make it clear to those that don't get it that you can't change any parts. It's always been illegal. I would even be willing to say you can't rebuild them.

New ones are cheaper than a rebuild and with a new one you know it's legal.

If you want a "matched" set dyno them and buy more if you don't like the results. Shocks are cheap and most agree there is no magic to make you faster.

[Dave D.]

So, no matter what happens....I will still be out a bunch of money either way....Now it's being suggested to buy multiple sets and spend on dyno time to find a matched good set? The shocks are what? $100+each, so to buy 3 sets would be at least $1200, then the cost to have them tested(nobody will dyno them for free)? So I am still going to be out almost $1500, just for shocks(then what do I do with the outcast shocks?). And I still have to schlep around to find someone to test them. At least I will get the warm and fuzzies about being legal! If they are being freshened and are tested out to the better side of Bilstein's spec,for less money and hassle overall, where's the harm in that? Maybe I don't feel I should have to spend north of $6k on a Pro motor to hang with the pointy end(because we all know there is an advantage) when I am racing in a class that was supposed to have "stock" drive trains. Now we have blueprinted engines with plunge cuts,chamber cuts,balancing etc.., balanced and matched injectors,transmissions with better internals, blueprinted Torsens, and more. Maybe we should mandated sealed crate engines direct from Mazda? The couple hundred spent on the shocks is probably less than what we spend on other areas of the car now as it is!

     The knee-jerk reactions in this class are ridiculous, as we go from one dramatic crisis to the next. After 20 pages of this one, where will we turn out attention to next? In racing there will ALWAYS be someone willing to spend the time or money to seek out an advantage. True spec racing makes that plan very expensive as racers turn to methods like buying multiples of everything to find the best. Pandora's box was opened when the engines got out of hand.  I say let it go and let this shi% storm blow over as it seems not many are using them anyway. Freshened shocks have been around for many years, NOW ther's an uproar over this? (because someone got their panties in a bunch over a Facebook classified ad!!)There must be many with too much free time to worry about stuff like this!

[gerglmuff2]

Welcome to the world of production based spec parts.       You'll find the same sorts of tolerances in all forms of racing that employ mass produced spec parts.  Circle track, off road, drags, the whole lot.  Until you start using high tolerance, race specific parts you'll have variances like that.  No disrespect intended but the feeling you get when you are running tuned shocks on your track car is probably more mental that any sort of performance advantage.  Hang out for a while, learn who the players are and you'll start to see what the agendas from some are.  Many here, most I say are pretty straight shooters.  I see the Fat Cat guys wanting to sell more product than anything.   Don't be impressed by a guy trying to sell you snake oil with squiggly curves.  Shock dynos don't race cars.  For the curves to be relevant in the real world there would need to be some testing with a pro caliber driver and crew with the appropriate data and data geeks.  The shock dyno tells you the variance of the particular part and not how that impacts the whole enchilada.  

I understand shocks are religion just as much as anything else, and fat cat really puts on the eat, pray, love for customers. I am not one of his customers.  I have autocrossed on his shocks in other peoples cars and i have to say, for like an E street miata, they are really well done. the car most certainly slalomed better, and was faster than just a normal off the shelf koni or bilstein setup. now, as i stated in an earlier post, i understand that shocks are more important in autocross than in road racing, because in an autocross run, there basically is zero time the car is "set" it is always in some transition, and in road racing the car spends much more time "set" and that puts less burden or advantage on the shocks. 

the penske's ive driven on in my co-drivers s2000 are unfucking believable shocks. that car is unbelievably good. i mean the suspension system and the diff in that car cost more than my entire spec miata, but jesus, the results are there. good parts, setup intelligently and tested thoroughly, make a difference. 

 

i know i am a new kid on the block when it comes to road racing, but in terms of shocks, ive autocrossed or tracked a huge variety of shocks. everything from BC crap, to pensekes to double adjustable this and that ... 

 

and believe me, my experience on that side of the fence, is a key reason why i am here, in a spec class, and not a builder class. ive built a few cars, and its a always a HUGE undertaking to set them up, the amount of testing, adjustments etc etc .... im tired of that. i want a car i can set up, drive fast, and just maintain. not one im always fiddling with trying to get an edge turning this knob or that one. im far more interested in driving, than building. 

thats why my perspective is that we should have a spec for valving, and stick to it. its the easiest way to keep us all on the same shock. just set an upper and lower bound on compression and rebound and call it good. this whole "must be as delivered" is unenforceable and vague. i dont really care what the bounds are on compression and rebound, but if it closes another money pit of testing, or revalving, or binning to gain an advantage, thats the way to do it. "as delivered" opens up binning as a strategy to those chasing the last .01%, a narrower force spec is easier to test, easier to enforce, and cheaper for us all to stay on the same performing shock. which is what we all want, because its a spec class. 

[Todd Lamb]

So, no matter what happens....I will still be out a bunch of money either way....Now it's being suggested to buy multiple sets and spend on dyno time to find a matched good set?

The entire point is that you bolt on 4 shocks out of the box and can be competitive without buying multiple sets. I­t­ works for the front runners. Do you feel you need to do more than that? If so, you are mistaken.

[chris haldeman]

We need to create a new sticker like the old fuel sticker. Instead of "pog" we need "pos" plain old shocks.

[Todd Lamb]

This whole "must be as delivered" is unenforceable and vague.

Incorrect. Disassembly and inspection. Shock Dyno. Both reveal quite clearly what is not “as delivered”. And now the rules are very clear that this is not a gray area to be explored.

[Todd Lamb]

By the way I think I­t­ is pretty comical that these two shills for Fat Cat showed up out of nowhere putting forth these false “arguments” for revalved shocks. Both of you signed up on this forum yesterday and both of you are referencing some BS that only Mr.Fat Cat himself would be worked up over. Guys you gotta be a little less obvious than this.

[Tom Hampton]

We need to create a new sticker like the old fuel sticker. Instead of "pog" we need "pos" plain old shocks.

Bonus points for just sticking them on your teammates car in random places!

[dstevens]

 

i know i am a new kid on the block when it comes to road racing, but in terms of shocks, ive autocrossed or tracked a huge variety of shocks. everything from BC crap, to pensekes to double adjustable this and that ... 

 

 

And others with many more miles, years more experience and several national championships disagree.  You sound like a plant.  Get some seat time, rack up some wins then come back and tell guys like Drago or Lamb how the shock thing should work.  At this point in your wheel to wheel career shocks are the least of your concern.