226 replies to this topic

[dstevens]

We need to create a new sticker like the old fuel sticker. Instead of "pog" we need "pos" plain old shocks.

I've raced some cars that needed a pos sticker but it had nothing to do with shocks...

[Ron Alan]

The entire point is that you bolt on 4 shocks out of the box and can be competitive without buying multiple sets. I­t­ works for the front runners. Do you feel you need to do more than that? If so, you are mistaken.

And while you're replacing those rear shocks go ahead and modify your upper control arm which allows the little guy an easy, affordable way to make a tuning change at the track very easily!  (when it becomes ok of course!)

 

I don't have an issue with Fatcat trying to sell his product/services but he needs to be smarter when he jumps into a den with a bunch of old lions who aren't getting the same kitty-cat any more   (I'm not excluding myself ) and he seems very uninformed about the history of SM...

[Dave D.]

Mr. Lamb, I am neither a shill from FC nor signed up yesterday. I have been in and out of SM since 2005, just was never very vocal on the forums(if your comment was directed my way). I have made a long career of working on cars and in recent years track and race cars and have been involved in motorsports for many years  ( can PM a resume if my low forum post count isn't good enough to voice an opinion), and I can say for a fact that on a regional level there are racers running rebuilt or serviced shocks( Bernie's, FC,etc..). I have taken notice of the decals or printed ID labels and engraved serial numbers under many cars, both NASA and SCCA. Now all I am right now, is curious as to the implied advantage of balanced or "optimized" shocks( not blatant illegal revalved,but "legal blueprinted")  at our level just as pro heads and engines have been as I work to get the the next level of performance( just want to know if it is me or the car, right?). So if you, and a few others at the "top" are saying that you truly run off the shelf, non parts-bin-optimized shocks and can compete at the highest level, that is good information. Although until I had a chance to test back to back, I would always be curious as to what they could do for me...............That's all.......

[Caveman-kwebb99]

 So if you, and a few others at the "top" are saying that you truly run off the shelf, non parts-bin-optimized shocks and can compete at the highest level, that is good information. Although until I had a chance to test back to back, I would always be curious as to what they could do for me...............That's all.......

I offer this challenge.. 

At ANY Super Tour test event test day in the 18 season... 

 

You pick any SM driver of the top 25 in supertour points in 2017..

We install the best shocks you can build that pass the current spec

We run two sessions on your shocks... two sessions on stock shocks..

No suspension or set up changes other than correcting toe.

 

If your shocks are faster by 1.0 second plus relative to the field average ( temp and track compensation)  I'll pay you $5000, if they aren't you pay me $5000.00 and look at how many shock rebuilds you will sell. 

 

You can structure the rules however you like as long as they encompass the general feel of what I mentioned above.. I'll provide all the labor and scales to verify set up and can give a list of drivers that would be more than willing to drive in this test. 

 

The entire shock deal is being blown out of proportion IMO 

 

THIS CHALLENGE WAS OFFERED UP EARLIER... NOW YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DOING YOUR OWN TESTING, OH UNLESS THE SHOCK GODS DONT SHOW UP WITH THEIR SUPER SHOCKS TO DO SAID TESTING, I SUSPECT THEY WILL NOT AS I BELEIVE THESE CLAIMS OF AN ADVANTAGE TO BE A BLATANT LIE, AND I WILL STILL WITH MY OUT OF THE BOX SHOCKS THAT ARE ON BOTH OF MY CARS!

[Peter Olivola]

This is a blatantly false statement.  If you think otherwise, you, not road racers, are the ones practicing religion.  I suggest you do a bit of research on the importance of shocks in road racing and if you're lucky enough to get an audience with Jeff Braun, see what he has to say about your statement.

 

I understand shocks are religion just as much as anything else, and fat cat really puts on the eat, pray, love for customers. I am not one of his customers.  I have autocrossed on his shocks in other peoples cars and i have to say, for like an E street miata, they are really well done. the car most certainly slalomed better, and was faster than just a normal off the shelf koni or bilstein setup. now, as i stated in an earlier post, i understand that shocks are more important in autocross than in road racing, because in an autocross run, there basically is zero time the car is "set" it is always in some transition, and in road racing the car spends much more time "set" and that puts less burden or advantage on the shocks.

[Jim Drago]

give hope to us regional and local guys just getting into the game though. 

 

Your posts would have more credibility as a newcomer to this forum with a name attached in your profile. Looking at your profile is a who's who of people from this site all wondering if you are truly a random newcomer or someone posing as a shill for people selling this shock service. 

[Jim Drago]

 

I offer this challenge.. 

At ANY Super Tour test event test day in the 18 season... 

 

You pick any SM driver of the top 25 in supertour points in 2017..

We install the best shocks you can build that pass the current spec

We run two sessions on your shocks... two sessions on stock shocks..

No suspension or set up changes other than correcting toe.

 

If your shocks are faster by 1.0 second plus relative to the field average ( temp and track compensation)  I'll pay you $5000, if they aren't you pay me $5000.00 and look at how many shock rebuilds you will sell. 

 

You can structure the rules however you like as long as they encompass the general feel of what I mentioned above.. I'll provide all the labor and scales to verify set up and can give a list of drivers that would be more than willing to drive in this test. 

 

The entire shock deal is being blown out of proportion IMO 

 

THIS CHALLENGE WAS OFFERED UP EARLIER... NOW YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DOING YOUR OWN TESTING, OH UNLESS THE SHOCK GODS DONT SHOW UP WITH THEIR SUPER SHOCKS TO DO SAID TESTING, I SUSPECT THEY WILL NOT AS I BELEIVE THESE CLAIMS OF AN ADVANTAGE TO BE A BLATANT LIE, AND I WILL STILL WITH MY OUT OF THE BOX SHOCKS THAT ARE ON BOTH OF MY CARS!

 

A few can match my offer or contribute and it will put these claims to bed once and for all. 15-20k challenge to prove your claims if valid should be like taking candy from a baby.  

 

FWIW, I know Dave D well, very experienced with SM, Very good fabricator and car builder in NJ. Definitely NOT a shill 

[Tom Sager]

Don't know how many have watched the entire video that is posted but it is hilarious.  For parts of it I thought I was watching an SNL skit mocking our class. 

[Jim Drago]

Don't know how many have watched the entire video that is posted but it is hilarious.  For parts of it I thought I was watching an SNL skit mocking our class. 

Great way to sell products to our class

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Great way to sell products to our class

 

Its called shaming someone into buying...

[gerglmuff2]

And others with many more miles, years more experience and several national championships disagree.  You sound like a plant.  Get some seat time, rack up some wins then come back and tell guys like Drago or Lamb how the shock thing should work.  At this point in your wheel to wheel career shocks are the least of your concern.

 

 

clearly, no one can enter a new form of racing, or driving, with any experience in any other form of motorsport.

it would be crazy for someone to move from autocross, to HPDE, to time trialing, to road racing. simply crazy.

i have not "told" jim or todd anything. 

 

[gerglmuff2]

Your posts would have more credibility as a newcomer to this forum with a name attached in your profile. Looking at your profile is a who's who of people from this site all wondering if you are truly a random newcomer or someone posing as a shill for people selling this shock service. 

 

done. 

i'm a nobody, a rookie road racer, and have no business, or personal connection to FCM. not even a customer. seems strange someone would think i was a shill after stating that i think the goal of the rulebook should be to put us all on similar performing shocks at a reasonable cost. 

i do have experience building and setting up autocross and time trial cars, including the effect of different types of and valved shocks and how they effect car performance. 

[gerglmuff2]

This is a blatantly false statement.  If you think otherwise, you, not road racers, are the ones practicing religion.  I suggest you do a bit of research on the importance of shocks in road racing and if you're lucky enough to get an audience with Jeff Braun, see what he has to say about your statement.

 

so there are two issues here. keep in mind at no point did i say that shocks don't matter. simply that shocks are less important.

1. if shocks are as important in road racing as in autocross, then the point of optimizing the shocks performance is even more magnified. this does not seem to be the case, based on folks using out of the box parts to win championships. clearly, the performance "left on the table" by the shocks that bilstein makes, is not that large. 

2. in autocross the course is generally much bumpier and the car spends nearly zero percent of the run at anything near steady state. the car is essentially always in some form of transition. so the shocks are always working on something. in track driving, the amount of time spent in transition is less, and the courses are much smoother (save curbing). shocks only have an effect when the car is transitioning, when less of the driving is transition, then shocks, as a total performance improve, are less important. 

for example: 3hp won't much effect an autocross run. 3hp will vastly effect the outcome of a spec miata race. you do different things with cars, different components and there effect on the outcome is different. thats all i am saying.

[dbrad]

New to Spec Miata and race in NASA (hope to run a few SARRC events in 2018).  Have low response counts in these forums because I typically have nothing of value to add.  NASA runs the Bilstein's. Rules are silent on modification and I take that to mean we cannot modify. 

 

Think the proposed rule modification is important so as to (1)  keep cars closer to spec, (2) consistency between SCCA & NASA (facilitate crossover racing), and (3) facilitate new drivers into class (easy to bolt in new out of box).

[davew]

Having been on the SMAC when the current rule was written, here is a little background to the best of my memory.

 

We took 10 sets of shocks and had them dynoed. Through out the best and worst and made a spec that no unmodified shock would fail. The spec was much broader than the range of the tested shocks. The specs are in a tech bulletin on the SCCA website someplace. The SMAC's recomendation was that any shock found outside of the spec should be disassembled to see if it was out of spec due to alteration or wear/damage. Worn or damaged shocks would not result in a DQ.

 

IMHO the new proposal is simply a clarification of the current rule. It gives more teeth to the IIDNSYCYCN rule. We have all been beaten by stock out of the box shocks.

 

We did some testing on a SM this fall with some true race shocks. $800+ per shock, Double adjustable stuff. We went about 0.2 seconds faster than we did with the same driver with the out of the box 5 year old Bilsteins.

 

We, the SM community, have the recipe on how to make these cars work. Using anything different will simply restart the arms race. The have will have more and the have nots will be farther behind.

 

K.I.S.S.

[Peter Olivola]

Stop.  Just stop.  You demonstrate a level of arrogant ignorance that is breathtaking to behold.  

 

1.  In SM, it doesn't matter if anything is optimized.  That isn't the point of the class.  The point is to make the equipment as equal as possible.  Until SSC, autox hasn't had anything like a spec class so you're (lack of) experience has led you seriously astray.

 

2.  The critical functions of shocks in autox vs road racing are different, but one is not more important to performance than than the other discipline.  Your steady state comment is particularly mistaken.  Taking a set is an oval track concept, not road racing.  Turn entry and exit in road racing is a significant amount of non-steady state time.  In all but extremely long corners, like the Road America Carousel, steady state is only achieved briefly, at or near the apex.  The difference between autox and road racing in this situation is the frequent, extreme transitions of autox, not steady state vs. non steady state.

 

so there are two issues here. keep in mind at no point did i say that shocks don't matter. simply that shocks are less important.

1. if shocks are as important in road racing as in autocross, then the point of optimizing the shocks performance is even more magnified. this does not seem to be the case, based on folks using out of the box parts to win championships. clearly, the performance "left on the table" by the shocks that bilstein makes, is not that large. 

2. in autocross the course is generally much bumpier and the car spends nearly zero percent of the run at anything near steady state. the car is essentially always in some form of transition. so the shocks are always working on something. in track driving, the amount of time spent in transition is less, and the courses are much smoother (save curbing). shocks only have an effect when the car is transitioning, when less of the driving is transition, then shocks, as a total performance improve, are less important. 

for example: 3hp won't much effect an autocross run. 3hp will vastly effect the outcome of a spec miata race. you do different things with cars, different components and there effect on the outcome is different. thats all i am saying.

[Danica Davison]

Have low response counts in these forums because I typically have nothing of value to add. 

 

Don't worry, I typically have nothing of value to add either and I just broke the 1,000 post mark

[gerglmuff2]

Stop.  Just stop.  You demonstrate a level of arrogant ignorance that is breathtaking to behold.  

 

1.  In SM, it doesn't matter if anything is optimized.  That isn't the point of the class.  The point is to make the equipment as equal as possible.  Until SSC, autox hasn't had anything like a spec class so you're (lack of) experience has led you seriously astray.

 

2.  The critical functions of shocks in autox vs road racing are different, but one is not more important to performance than than the other discipline.  Your steady state comment is particularly mistaken.  Taking a set is an oval track concept, not road racing.  Turn entry and exit in road racing is a significant amount of non-steady state time.  In all but extremely long corners, like the Road America Carousel, steady state is only achieved briefly, at or near the apex.  The difference between autox and road racing in this situation is the frequent, extreme transitions of autox, not steady state vs. non steady state.

 

seriously? 

1. are you arguing having optimized the performance of the car within the rules, isn't an advantage? 

2. here we are screaming agreement with each other. agreeing that the purpose and function of the shocks under different conditions would lead to differences in the needs of those parts and the outcome of the competition ... thats exactly what i said. as to the verbiage steady state versus non, versus more frequent and violent transitions is really pedantic. 6 here, half dozen there. we are talking about the same thing. in a more dynamic and violent environment, shocks will be more important than somewhere not as frequent or violent. 

[Peter Olivola]

1.  Optimized within the rules.  In this case, the rules are intended to make the cars as equal as possible to a degree not applied to non-spec classes.  The evidence that rebuilt shocks perform better in SM seems to be lacking.  Only the outlay of money is evident.

 

2.  No.  You said shocks are more important in autox than road racing.  You used the example of steady state vs. non steady state to make your point.  There's noting pedantic about your mistake.

 

 

seriously? 

1. are you arguing having optimized the performance of the car within the rules, isn't an advantage? 

2. here we are screaming agreement with each other. agreeing that the purpose and function of the shocks under different conditions would lead to differences in the needs of those parts and the outcome of the competition ... thats exactly what i said. as to the verbiage steady state versus non, versus more frequent and violent transitions is really pedantic. 6 here, half dozen there. we are talking about the same thing. in a more dynamic and violent environment, shocks will be more important than somewhere not as frequent or violent. 

[gerglmuff2]

1.  Optimized within the rules.  In this case, the rules are intended to make the cars as equal as possible to a degree not applied to non-spec classes.  The evidence that rebuilt shocks perform better in SM seems to be lacking.  Only the outlay of money is evident.

 

2.  No.  You said shocks are more important in autox than road racing.  You used the example of steady state vs. non steady state to make your point.  There's noting pedantic about your mistake.

 

we are yelling at each other in agreement.