151 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

Or...SCCA...racing room...does the car being overtaken have to leave room??

 

(this is assuming he can...car on his passenger door?)

[Jim Drago]

Hmmm...from someone who knows none of the parties involved...I think the 2nd video only makes the driver look bad. Agree 100% with Jamie!

 

I assume it is the green car in the mirror that was against the wall? To begin with...The driver in the video car is 100% out of position!!!! 2 car length + gap??  I also dont think he knew the green car was there...mistake 2! Then when he turns his head to look his car pinches the green car into the wall...mistake 3!

 

If the green car in fact jumped the start...ok...punish for that...but I dont see a punt while cars are accelerating...I see a car pitting itself around another car he didn't see. For those who want to blame the jumped start...ask yourself this...if the video car is 6' from the car in front does this happen?

 

My point being...the camera car needs to look in the mirror as well...no pun intended!

 

I agree on lagging back was a mistake.. But it stops there imo.   he comes around a corner, gets straight( before flag stand) looks in his mirror to see who is around. By the time he starts to look in the mirror he is already starting a nasty ride to the wall.   I do not believe 72 intentionally made contact either, but just not enough room there. So it is the passing cars responsibility and if the car in front is going straight( he was)  it is the car behinds responsibility to avoid contact. 

[OrangeCrush86]

Sucks for the people involved.

 

I'm only one year into SM but I have yet to see a start waved off. I came from karts where wave offs happened a lot, probably because the time delay is much smaller, but it kept starts safer. At my local track I wish the flagger would be a little more strict.

[Danica Davison]

I have no bone in this fight either....however if you look where the incident happened the wall narrows as you approach the bridge. If you look at Mr. Li (car the was wrecked) hands when the impact happens his hands are straight. I would love to see the in car video of the green car, having said that: It is the overtaking car responsibility to make sure it is safe to pass when overtaking a car. In my opinion the wall narrowing caused the green car to pinch in and avoid the wall....

 

I have seen in-car video from the green car (Nettles). His hands do not move at all and are perfectly straight. Watching his video it actually showed Li moving slightly at an angle towards him to the left before they barely touched.  When I watched it, I said "yeah, he didn't see you there." 

 

Just answering what you wanted to know, not giving an opinion.

[Jim Drago]

I have seen in-car video from the green car (Nettles). His hands do not move at all and are perfectly straight. Watching his video it actually showed Li moving slightly at an angle towards him to the left before they barely touched.  When I watched it, I said "yeah, he didn't see you there." 

 

Just answering what you wanted to know, not giving an opinion.

The wheel on the crashed car doesn't move?  the two cars appear to be on intersecting paths with both cars holding the wheel straight. Even if he didn't jump the start...  the crashed car held a straight line. it was the passing cars responsibility to insure there would be a enough room for him to pass the car on its' current line without contact. If the car in the front does not change his line ( even if he line is angling slightly towards the wall)  it is the fault 100% passing car. That doesn't make him the anti christ or even a bad guy   Shit happens !  

[FTodaro]

Jim Post that picture of the Mirrors you put on my car to make this point.

 

I am going to a smaller window net this year so i can see clearly to my driver side mirror. I got my self into a bad spot, because i did not fully appreciate how much room I did not have on a car that was moving in to the apex of a corner. My prior window net was full widow double mesh which was difficult to see through. 

 

Not a total excuse, but its worth taking a look at what you can to to improve visibility , The window net rule has no limitations on size so take a moment to see if you can improve your odds. 

[Johnny D]

Ok, so the take away is....

 

Drivers

Spatial awareness

An opening may not be a passing opportunity.

Overtaking driver has a responsibility.

Don't jump the start ?

Grid up (closer)

 

How about SCCA ?

Should the pace car been going slower or stopped to gather the field ?

Flagger do his/her job, waited for most to come around 17, wave off ??

Passing rules needed ?

 

Letterman's top ten list.

 

J~

[Danica Davison]

The wheel on the crashed car doesn't move?  the two cars appear to be on intersecting paths with both cars holding the wheel straight. Even if he didn't jump the start...  the crashed car held a straight line. it was the passing cars responsibility to insure there would be a enough room for him to pass the car on its' current line without contact. If the car in the front does not change his line ( even if he line is angling slightly towards the wall)  it is the fault 100% passing car. That doesn't make him the anti christ or even a bad guy   Shit happens !

 

Hey, I never said an opinion lol. I am just saying I have seen his video, and he didn't turn right into him. He also hit the gas when everyone else did. What he did wrong was when they lifted in front of him ... he passed (briefly lifted) and then got back on it when he was told the green was out... and he didn't slow down to the pace of everyone else, and when they all got back on it, he had A LOT more momentum,  I really do think the 17a flagger was slow taking it down cause it looked like we were well past the SF when he had sight of the front stretch and the flagger was just then pulling it down. Trying to stay unbiased and just state why I think things happened the way it did.  I think there is room to learn for more than just one person in this video. Even the guy that posted the original video said that Nettles didn't turn the guy, and he was more upset with getting passed before the green. Idk, the whole situation is shitty if you ask me.

[callumhay]

Ok, so the take away is....

 

Drivers

Spatial awareness

An opening may not be a passing opportunity.

Overtaking driver has a responsibility.

Don't jump the start ?

Grid up (closer)

 

How about SCCA ?

Should the pace car been going slower or stopped to gather the field ?

Flagger do his/her job, wave off ??

Passing rules needed ?

 

Letterman's top ten list.

 

J~

I think these are pretty good takeaways and there is something to learn from watching this video. In reality stuff like this should be used by SCCA to have a similar conversation to what is taking place here. The start is the only time where everyone ( the flaggers, starters..pace car..the club mandating what's appropriate in a start, the drivers) all have to co-operate, know the rules and follow the rules.  No matter if the green flag is waving, a double yellow still means no passing..right?

 

FWIW I don't think the green flag should fly at Sebring until the last car in the field is visible to the starter. Anyone agree or disagree with that? With that track you often have a bunch of cars at  T16  when the green flies...if you have no radio you are basically guessing that it's time to go when everyone else is going.Hanging back either is or is not acceptable to the club...even if you don't jump the start, if you leave a big gap it invites the opportunistic start jumper. The way I read the GCR , hanging back is not acceptable. The problem with not uniformly enforcing that rule means everyone at the back is interpreting it their own way to the advantage and disadvantage of others. For sure you don't see the drivers at the front doing that...at least with car lengths of distance.   In addition, lets face it, if you are in the mid pack to the rear, what is wrong with holding a line and giving a little more room because there is no guarantee that someone isn't going to miss a shift or lose concentration?

[Jim Drago]

Hey, I never said an opinion lol. I am just saying I have seen his video, and he didn't turn right into him. He also hit the gas when everyone else did. What he did wrong was when they lifted in front of him ... he passed (briefly lifted) and then got back on it when he was told the green was out... and he didn't slow down to the pace of everyone else, and when they all got back on it, he had A LOT more momentum,  I really do think the 17a flagger was slow taking it down cause it looked like we were well past the SF when he had sight of the front stretch and the flagger was just then pulling it down. Trying to stay unbiased and just state why I think things happened the way it did.  I think there is room to learn for more than just one person in this video. Even the guy that posted the original video said that Nettles didn't turn the guy, and he was more upset with getting passed before the green. Idk, the whole situation is shitty if you ask me.

For a guy not trying to give an opinion.. You are sure sounding like a homer

[Johnny D]

[Danica Davison]

For a guy not trying to give an opinion.. You are sure sounding like a homer

 

Lol, I am just trying to explain what I saw, not saying he is innocent. Who knows if Nettles will ever post his video? I would, but that's just me.

[Richard Astacio]

 

FWIW I don't think the green flag should fly at Sebring until the last car in the field is visible to the starter. Anyone agree or disagree with that? 

 

If I was a scca staff member I would say yes for sure.

 

As a racer, I kind of like when the leaders jump out fast as some of the other drivers are asleep on the switch. Which leads to less pressure from behind and I can concentrate on moving forward rather than watching my mirrors.I also think it single files the group much quicker. Which hopefully means less carnage at the start. 

 

Not sure if this makes sense to anyone. 

[BNaumann]

I find the best way to avoid incidents like this is to qualify higher.

[lancebe]

If I was a scca staff member I would say yes for sure.

 

As a racer, I kind of like when the leaders jump out fast as some of the other drivers are asleep on the switch. Which leads to less pressure from behind and I can concentrate on moving forward rather than watching my mirrors.I also think it single files the group much quicker. Which hopefully means less carnage at the start. 

 

Not sure if this makes sense to anyone. 

Only issue I could see is that if it is a large field like turkey trot or majors, the front pack could be close to turn 1 by the time the starter can see that last car. 

[Johnny D]

I find the best way to avoid incidents like this is to qualify higher.

 

Yea I don't know what happened in Qual, it looks like Nettles was 2 secs faster.

 

J~

[Johnny D]

Only issue I could see is that if it is a large field like turkey trot or majors, the front pack could be close to turn 1 by the time the starter can see that last car. 

 

I like everyone to race but it really looks poorly when you have people with less experience laying back.

 

How about a min one car length rule behind the car ahead. At least for a big show.

 

J~

[Danica Davison]

FWIW I don't think the green flag should fly at Sebring until the last car in the field is visible to the starter. Anyone agree or disagree with that? With that track you often have a bunch of cars at  T16  when the green flies...if you have no radio you are basically guessing that it's time to go when everyone else is going.

 

Then the 35th car on the grid would be the first one to see the green lol

[Danica Davison]

I like everyone to race but it really looks poorly when you have people with less experience laying back.
 
How about a min one car length rule behind the car ahead. At least for a big show.
 
J~

 

Don't they cover this in driver's school?

[Johnny D]

Don't they cover this in driver's school?

 

You would think. But it takes time to grow a set of balls.

 

I don't want to say they're not ready for HST yet. SCCA allows everyone with a credit card and pulse right ?

 

The only other thing it could be would be the pace car was going to fast, what do you think ?

 

J~