151 replies to this topic

[Martinracing98]

The guys at the front mostly know each other and presumably have some degree of communication on/off track and I think that really should be left alone to figure it out for themselves..anything in mid or lower pack should be looked at with a lot of scrutiny with a high degree of sportsmanship expected.

 

You can't do that. I agree action should be taken to keep drivers bunched. All drivers. The action has to be consistent. Drivers will take the advantage they can get away with or feel others are taking.

[Johnny D]

We've had this conversation before...

 

Front take off before the flag, flag stand doesn't wave off. "oh they'll get a jump on me, I have to"

 

But in the same breathe... looked like the back wasn't gridded up, I'd almost say chicken too from that one crash video.

 

Then the green cars sayin, bozos!! catch up!! and you get this result.

 

J~

[callumhay]

You can't do that. I agree action should be taken to keep drivers bunched. All drivers. The action has to be consistent. Drivers will take the advantage they can get away with or feel others are taking.

 

Let me clarify what I meant. I agree all drivers need to be bunched...I even wrote an article about it for the CFR Checker magazine. I personally believe that it should be something that every driver understands what to do and be able to do it all the time. My statement pertains to the risk of wrecking and what's at stake. For the front pack drivers at a Majors event, I would say most clearly have skill and race more regularly with one another and have a comfort level with that. The mid pack and back are going to have much more different levels of experience and probably not as used to one another. You can not tell me that someone who is one second off pace has any chance in hell of winning the race unless by some act of God that vaporizes 10 or 20 drivers in front of that driver. Therefore what is to be gained by taking chances...moving from 29 to 28? 49 to 45? OK so maybe that's not a racing mentality BUT its a go home intact mentality. Why do the experienced drivers call it the kill zone? Surely if the SCCA put as much effort in to investigating, assessing and discussing contact it would help the club. I'm just saying that the stewards should have a high degree of scrutiny for something so clear as was posted in that video. Whether it was dumb or reckless it still ended somebody's weekend un-necessarily. I think that the drivers in the mid and rear should probably look out for one another more and if an incident occurs, that investigation can continue beyond the race and any action taken consider what was at stake as part of the equation.     FWIW at Sebring I don't think the green flag should fly unless all cars are bunched even if it means going around and around. It should be a mandatory drivers meeting discussion and be enforced by the officials....it should become automatic for everyone racing in SCCA to start races the same way from the front to the rear....Maybe just a bug a boo of mine but if it's written in the GCR surely there is nothing wrong with enforcing it to the same degree as car compliance. 

 

There's been a ton of discussion about car contact and clearly its a risk many are willing to take since the turnout seems to be good for these events. The question really boils down to whether you can combine the conduct of a track day experience with the excitement of unrestricted passing in a racing environment. Put another way, what do the majority of your customers want? Are they happy with the risk and will they keep being customers? Or are the majority of your customers going to leave and do something else and your turnout is only as good as being able to bring in new customers? Is that a good 10 year plan?  How about 20 years? ? If you don't like contact, SCCA could say "well we have Solo and Rally cross, maybe that's more to your liking?" Which is fine. But if you don't like contact and like road "racing" you have plenty of options other than SCCA.  Car club events, vintage maybe another sanctioning body like NASA or maybe Chump car with your "$500" car. Those folks are the ones nipping at the heels of SCCA and clearly attracting a different type of customer...maybe those folks are not "cut out" for SCCA road racing...or maybe they would be back in SCCA if contact issues were handled differently.  Sorry for the long winded reply but I just think that on some level the SCCA misses the point on what fun can be for some. Most of what I'm saying comes down to SCCA rather than SM by itself. The club puts a lot of focus on winning and I think it also needs to have a place for what's to be gained by losing well, as well. 

 

Cal  

[Sean - MiataCage]

I have offered this before and I will offer it again.......   Put a freakin drone in the air for the starts of some of these bigger races.  If nothing else we should be looking at starts from above to see what can be learned.  Anyone coming out of line or jumping the start will be very obvious from above.  Once we start seeing patterns and can come up with a plan to address it, then I think we can go through an education process prior to starting to drop the hammer with penalties. 

 

The drone does not need to be directly over the track and since SCCA is renting the track, in many cases they can approve the use of a drone.

 

I will buy the drone if SCCA can be accountable for it and use it from time to time.

 

There is technology out there.... Lets use it.

 

Sean 

[Tom Sager]

 

Very unfortunate.  Sorry to see this. 

[Richard Astacio]

. It's all good, car damage is a risk we take every time we go to the track. 

I agree that it is a risk we take however it is not ok for it to be damaged from someone bone head decision. I think the term "racing incident" is used to loosely.

This is the Super Tour!!! not a regular regional event, the standard should be higher for these types of event. The only way SCCA is going to change is if we boycott these races until something is done about the contact. They also need to update the system and introduce an electronic log book or electronic licenses........at least for drivers participating in Super Tour races, then you can trickle it down to the Majors and so on.

 

Can the smac members make a big push for this? Spec Miata and SRF are the classes that is carrying these events. We can make a difference. 

[High Chair]

That's a punishment? He was DQ from race 1, he should of been DQ for race 2 also.......On top of that he was allowed to keep his qualifying times and started in a higher position in race 2..... He gridded next to me so I was a bit worried.

His punishment was 3 or 4 weekends on probation, loss of finishing position in race #1 and maybe points (I can't remember). Many of us watch the #72 cars video and he didn't pit the other driver. That doesn't mean he didn't jump the start and should not be held responsible but he did not turn into the other driver. The #72 car was along the wall driving in a straight line when they made contact. Certainly not defending his start but from other videos it looks like the #72 goes up there and just turns the other guy and that isn't what happened.

[High Chair]

Evening guys! Here is footage of the stack up and wreck from Race one, lap one that ended my weekend, and possibly the car. I'm not 100% sure I want to rebuild it yet, until we take it apart and investigate a bit further. Luckily I walked away with nothing but a headache for the rest of the day. 

 

Also, before anyone mentions it, I know I should have taken my hands off the wheel, but being my first big wreck, I didn't think about it while heading towards the wall. The wreck was very fast forward and slow motion all at once.

 

 

In the 10 years I have been racing SM the drivers at the Sebring race were the worse I  have ever seen.  It didn't help that I got stuck further back then I wanted to after showing up at the last minute but drivers in the top 20 that are capable of running times down in the 36's should know how to not dive bomb and race two wide around a corner. There were cars banging mirrors on straights, blocking, swerving in the brake zones, you name it it was happening. It was great to see Drago, Blake, Nick, and the others but next year I will just drink beer from the side lines.

[John Wilding]

I agree that it is a risk we take however it is not ok for it to be damaged from someone bone head decision. I think the term "racing incident" is used to loosely.

This is the Super Tour!!! not a regular regional event, the standard should be higher for these types of event. The only way SCCA is going to change is if we boycott these races until something is done about the contact. They also need to update the system and introduce an electronic log book or electronic licenses........at least for drivers participating in Super Tour races, then you can trickle it down to the Majors and so on.

 

Can the smac members make a big push for this? Spec Miata and SRF are the classes that is carrying these events. We can make a difference. 

 

Richard, my post was referencing my wreck, not the wreck on the front straight; which was totally unacceptable. I am borderline clinically depressed over my car, and I'm not sure I would feel any better if I got the same damage at a regional vs. a Super Tour race. Ironically, we are lucky to have so many talented drivers in the Southeast, specifically Florida, that we run as close as we did on the start for lap after lap, and no damage.

 

The last time one of my cars went to the body shop was back in 2011, when another driver hit me from behind, spun me out, and my front bumper got side swiped. We race clean down here, so this outcome wasn't expected, but I still view my situation as a racing incident as I've seen some other videos from cars behind me. 

[Bench Racer]

Not dissing anything anyone has said. There seems to be tools in place. Maybe a couple tweak's are needed as I'm sure the racing competition in Spec Miata has advanced beyond the rules as written today. And lease we forget the starter's actions or lack of actions.

 

C. The Starter will start the race by suddenly and continuously waving the green flag until all cars have passed the start line if the field is:

1. At a constant low speed; Subjective

2. Well bunched; and Subjective

3. Close enough to the Starter that the majority of the drivers can see the flag.

D. Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when the green flag is displayed. when car crosses the start/finish line.

6.5.4. An Aborted Start

A. The Starter will abort the start by displaying no flag and shaking his head in the negative if the field is not in good order, or if some drivers have improved their positions by moving out of line more than half a car width or by passing prior to the waving of the green flag.  This advises the drivers to proceed on another pace lap.  Drivers raise one hand to confirm that the start is aborted.

B. If the race is not started, another pace lap will be run.  Depending on conditions, the pace car may overtake the field and resume its function.  The front row drivers must be advised that the pace car may return to its position for the additional pace lap if there is no start. C. Any additional pace lap(s) following aborted start(s) are under double standing yellow flags at all stations, and are scored as race laps.  Timing starts when the pole car crosses the timing control line, unless otherwise specified by the event Supplemental Regulations.  Include first aborted lap as a scored lap.

[Jim Drago]

 Spec Miata and SRF are the classes that is carrying these events. 

Not just the events, the entire club. Imo, If these two classes took their toys and went home, the club would fold. 

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

[Danica Davison]

Yeah, I agree with what Jamie said about Nettles. I watched Nettle's video in our trailer and in his video ... everyone is gapped out like mentioned above and when everyone else starts getting on throttle going in to T17, he starts to go and maybe a little bit harder than the rest ... then, when he sees people lifting, he lifted. Then, he was told on the radio that the green was out (right before he went under T17 bridge) and he started going again. I think the T17a (exit) flagger was late pulling his flag down. And I think he mad much more momentum because he got on the gas harder. 

 

I still think he jumped it in T17 and should not have passed before he heard the green flag which I think was his biggest mistake.  I will say, in regards to the wreck, he never pit maneuvered the guy. His wheel was straight up against the wall and the guy that wrecked barely moved over (probably didn't know he was there), and that's what happened.

 

Let's also remember that I was in 18th position at the start of the race and I was almost full throttle just as I passed under the drive over bridge.  When you space it out to 45th where this was ... especially with how gapped it was, he didn't go any earlier than everyone else did. Could it have been avoided? Absolutely. Should he get a probation for it? I think that would be fair.

 

Also, the guy that came to the Autotechnik trailer that wanted to talk to Nettles was not the guy that was wrecked, but the one that posted the other video. He was being very pushy before we could even pull the video up, so it kind of annoyed Nettles, and myself a little bit too, because he wouldn't be quiet and stop accusing for just a second until we got the video up.  Which is probably where the guy got the "He didn't think he did anything wrong" quote from Nettles. 

 

Just some thoughts.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Anytime you get in the car and start a race you have to ask yourself is the risk worth the reward. In this case it does not you're starting that far back in a pack and those four or five cars that you passed on start are not going to make a difference. Now there is a guy sitting at home with a totaled car totally unnecessary.

My son just started racing and I told him the first goal is to get through the first three corners without any incidents after that start racing. There are too many guys out there that think they can win the race in turn one.

[Danica Davison]

Anytime you get in the car and start a race you have to ask yourself is the risk worth the reward. In this case it does not you're starting that far back in a pack and those four or five cars that you passed on start are not going to make a difference. Now there is a guy sitting at home with a totaled car totally unnecessary.

My son just started racing and I told him the first goal is to get through the first three corners without any incidents after that start racing. There are too many guys out there that think they can win the race in turn one.

 

Totally agree with you. And there were those drivers that put risk over reward from the front of the back, to the back of the pack. Unfortunately, there is only one guy getting the negative attention (which is likely deserved) because only one car was wrecked. Some of the worst racing I have EVER seen occurred this weekend. It wasn't fun at all.

[Richard Astacio]

His punishment was 3 or 4 weekends on probation, loss of finishing position in race #1 and maybe points (I can't remember). Many of us watch the #72 cars video and he didn't pit the other driver. That doesn't mean he didn't jump the start and should not be held responsible but he did not turn into the other driver. The #72 car was along the wall driving in a straight line when they made contact. Certainly not defending his start but from other videos it looks like the #72 goes up there and just turns the other guy and that isn't what happened.

 

I am not saying that he punted the guy on purpose, I am also not going to try and decipher and/or speculate what is going in someone mind.

The fact is that there was contact and someone car was wrecked and luckily not seriously injured.

 

1- He initially jumped the start...most likely if he did not jump the start this incident would of not happened.

2- His car came into contact with another car from behind, meaning his bumper/wheel came in contact with the rear of another car. 

3- He was DQ for race 1....no points really taken away since you only get points when you finish top 20. He did not finish top 20.

However since he went faster in race 1 which he was DQ for why was his fast lap time during race 1 allow him to be grid higher in race 2 than race 1?

[lancebe]

There was a ton of passing under yellow in race 1. In a field this deep I’d expect the guys racing for 20-25th to be a little more aware. I spoke to a couple of the offenders before race 2, one apologized knowing he was definitely wrong. My hand was waving frantically in the car that we were under double yellow and I was still being passed. I think speaking to people calmly and letting them know that you were unhappy with their on track behavior is impactful. One of the offending drivers commented to me in impound after race 2 that he was more heads up in race 2, who knows maybe him being a bit more aware prevented an incident. We can protest all we want but we also need to take accountability and do a little self policing in my opinion. It works as long as you have the right tone and approach the person in a constructive way.

[FTodaro]

In the 10 years I have been racing SM the drivers at the Sebring race were the worse I  have ever seen.  It didn't help that I got stuck further back then I wanted to after showing up at the last minute but drivers in the top 20 that are capable of running times down in the 36's should know how to not dive bomb and race two wide around a corner. There were cars banging mirrors on straights, blocking, swerving in the brake zones, you name it it was happening. It was great to see Drago, Blake, Nick, and the others but next year I will just drink beer from the side lines.

Sorry to hear about all the contact down there. It seams to me that the first few majors of the year, drivers shaking off the rust totally forget about the goal of getting to the next corner. I for one am really tired of fixing the car on stuff that is just plain stupid. No contact is acceptable, but if you were making a last lap pass for the win, i can understand being aggressive and taking a chance. The risk v reward equation makes some sense. But to often drivers are mindless at the start and i think calling people out for it is one of the ways to stop it.

 

Our NASA region urges us to stay in line at the start down the straight to the first corner rather than stacking shit up 5 wide such that no one gets through.

 

Like Lamb has said in the past, not every opening is a passing opportunity.

 

It is up to us to change drivers attitudes.

[Ron Alan]

Hmmm...from someone who knows none of the parties involved...I think the 2nd video only makes the driver look bad. Agree 100% with Jamie!

 

I assume it is the green car in the mirror that was against the wall? To begin with...The driver in the video car is 100% out of position!!!! 2 car length + gap??  I also dont think he knew the green car was there...mistake 2! Then when he turns his head to look his car pinches the green car into the wall...mistake 3!

 

If the green car in fact jumped the start...ok...punish for that...but I dont see a punt while cars are accelerating...I see a car pitting itself around another car he didn't see. For those who want to blame the jumped start...ask yourself this...if the video car is 6' from the car in front does this happen?

 

My point being...the camera car needs to look in the mirror as well...no pun intended!

[Richard Astacio]

 

 

IThen when he turns his head to look his car pinches the green car into the wall...

 

 

I have no bone in this fight either....however if you look where the incident happened the wall narrows as you approach the bridge. If you look at Mr. Li (car the was wrecked) hands when the impact happens his hands are straight. I would love to see the in car video of the green car, having said that: It is the overtaking car responsibility to make sure it is safe to pass when overtaking a car. In my opinion the wall narrowing caused the green car to pinch in and avoid the wall....