267 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

If you've never driven an electric car, you have no idea what you are missing.  I've had 3 so far, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Spark EV, and a Model 3.

 

And there are some serious turds too - the Leaf is a soul sucking depressing car that should be only driven by people eager to experience depression.  The Spark is a crap can with hard seats and a terrible interior - but it makes up for it with 325 ft. lb of torque that makes it thoroughly entertaining to drive.  Roasted the front tires with only 18K on the car.  The 2014's had 400 ft. lb of torque (different battery suppliers) - car is a hoot to drive.  But both of commuting appliances at the end of the day.

 

And the Model 3 is just plain amazing - again 100% torque at 0 rpm is something you have to experience.  I drove a Model S in 2014 for the 1st time - it completely destroyed every assumption I had about EV's.

 

EV's are not only coming, but they are the proper car for the vast majority of use cases (think commuting appliances generally).  ICE cars will still have their place - I can't stand watching Formula E.  Racing and performance cars are still about the smell and sound.  But with millennials who don't bother getting their drivers' licenses, they don't care about cars the way a generation ago did.  ICE cars will be a relic soon - that makes me personally sad, but it is a reality.

 

And don't get me started on autonomous vehicles - that train is coming faster than anyone can imagine.

Sounds like insider info to me 

[Tom Sager]

If you've never driven an electric car, you have no idea what you are missing.  I've had 3 so far, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Spark EV, and a Model 3.

 

And there are some serious turds too - the Leaf is a soul sucking depressing car that should be only driven by people eager to experience depression.  The Spark is a crap can with hard seats and a terrible interior - but it makes up for it with 325 ft. lb of torque that makes it thoroughly entertaining to drive.  Roasted the front tires with only 18K on the car.  The 2014's had 400 ft. lb of torque (different battery suppliers) - car is a hoot to drive.  But both of commuting appliances at the end of the day.

 

And the Model 3 is just plain amazing - again 100% torque at 0 rpm is something you have to experience.  I drove a Model S in 2014 for the 1st time - it completely destroyed every assumption I had about EV's.

 

EV's are not only coming, but they are the proper car for the vast majority of use cases (think commuting appliances generally).  ICE cars will still have their place - I can't stand watching Formula E.  Racing and performance cars are still about the smell and sound.  But with millennials who don't bother getting their drivers' licenses, they don't care about cars the way a generation ago did.  ICE cars will be a relic soon - that makes me personally sad, but it is a reality.

 

And don't get me started on autonomous vehicles - that train is coming faster than anyone can imagine.

 

I drove a Tesla Model S around Watkins Glen (the track and the surrounding area) in 2016.  Yes, very impressive car. 

 

IMO autonomous vehicles face some headwinds that will slow down their introduction and proliferation.  Incidents like the one in Arizona will raise safety concerns and it's probably a good bet that there will be more similar accidents unfortunately particularly as more of these cars find their way on the roads.  Automakers and truck makers (engineering staff) have some jitters about safety and don't rule out lawmakers who may also play a role in the rollout.  A large portion of the driving population will not be early adopters and safety setbacks or concerns will move that further to the horizon.  There will be media out there dying to pounce on such incidents.  Additionally the automakers must make huge investments in the development of these cars making it a risky business.  Being first or early to market might not be a goal for some.

[Bench Racer]

Now there is no arguing those facts. 

 

I would say not as long as you think.. not for us old guys.. but younger guys.

Kaiser is an SM guy and in his first year at the brickyard he is VERY close and not in the same equipment. he was a good SM driver, but not a stand out. 

And how long do you suggest it would take Loshak to adapt to 228 mph?

[Jim Drago]

Kyle Kaiser if I remember my facts correctly would have been named 2014 SM Runoffs champion had he not had one bad relief cut. The only car in the top 6 that didn't fail the STR correct? For the 1 year he spent in SM he stood out...even if at times he was the guy to stay away from if you wanted to get your car home in one piece! I think he came to us from open wheel and went back...fun to follow a young successful driver!

yeah, him and six others..   My point was not to tear apart Kaiser and certainly will be rooting for him.  Just pointing out he was not destroying the competition and winning every race( not sure if he won any)     

[Jim Drago]

And how long do you suggest it would take Loshak to adapt to 228 mph?

No idea.. If you are asking me if Loshak and Danica were given the same opportunities..  I agree Loshak ends up with a more impressive career than Danica

[Danica Davison]

Kyle, are you attempting to suck me into something? Ya, the same thing has been said about Loshak.

 

I swear, you have the biggest hard-on for this Loshak guy.

[MPR22]

We are certainly working on the wrong problem, but I think we disagree with what the problem statement should be.  "Most countries" are entire orders of magnitude less acreage and less populated than the U.S.  Norway is the population of Houston, and sitting on so much oil that they can easily afford all the socialist dreams.  Canada is the population of California, but with far greater acreage and natural resources.

 

Comparing "countries" is like comparing families of 12 on farms to single people living in apartments. But when it is politically useful, political operatives will use whatever "statistics" suit them.

 

If we want to improve policymaking, perhaps we should first tone down the self-flagellating and logically misleading "benchmarks" and "statistics".  

 

I think it was Pat Bedard that did the math several years ago in Car/Driver about the efficiency of Feelgood/Soundsgood solutions like public transportation (buses, rail) versus if everyone was driving a Prius.  If I recall, the problem with the math is that the occupancy rate is rarely high enough to make the buses and trains make much of a dent, and rail is particularly expensive from an infrastructure standpoint.

 

Sure, maybe it works great in Norway … which, again, is about the population of Houston, on a plot of land about half the size of Texas.  Not very useful as a benchmark.

I believe you misunderstood what I was intending to state.  I was specifically pointing to the USA's highway infrastructure and how much it costs vs most countries gdps.  

 

I  believe drone technology should be the answer sooner than later and we are pouring too much money into obsolete highways.  I also believe it will continue to the be that way because the car manufacturers are not interested in promoting drone technology.  

 

 I am not on board with rail, cars, and any other method that continues to require infrastructure and maintenance.  

 

I do think the automated cars are a decent bridge to "flying cars".  

[Tom Hampton]

I don't want the average village idiot anywhere near the controls in 3 dimensional space.  As a rule humans haven't demonstrated the ability to drive in a straight line, at a constant speed, without running into somebody.

Automated drones MAYBE. But, we are a really, really, long way away from that being a reality.   Since I design airplanes for a living...we are a VERY LONG way away from the FAA touching automated drones for the mass public, which takeoff/land/navigate in full-automatic mode with NO PILOT-IN-THE-LOOP, or even a qualified pilot on-board.  So far, in fact, that I'd be surprised if I live that long. The FAA is not getting more accepting of new technologies...or less rigorous in their safety requirements, that much is certain. 
 
We've only barely managed to create some automated cars which mostly don't run into each other, but are still struggling with "other" obstacles. There are better sensor technologies out there than what is being used today.  But, with capability comes expense...and a certain degree of human hazard, and size, weight, power, cooling constraints.
 
ETA: This isn't going to accelerate acceptance of full-autonomous vehicles, either:

https://www.ntsb.gov...010-prelim.aspx

[Steve Scheifler]

Odd to read someone slamming the very infrastructure which has been absolutely key to development and success in this country. And I’m not talking about getting your big screen TVs from port to Best Buy. Perhaps most critically railroads and highways have enabled the distribution of food from farms to grocers providing fresh dairy and produce year-round to absolutely every corner of the country. Mind you I’m pleased to see the grow-local buy-local trend catching on in more places but there is no way that will ever fully supply even a fraction of demand in areas of high population density in-season let alone out of season. Sure, efforts to develop soil-free and vertical farming etc are showing promise, but they still require a lot of space (by urban or suburban standards) and are quite expensive. Like alternative energy they have their place but aren’t even close to making a meaningful contribution.

But back to TVs and pretty much everything else you’ve ever owned, how exactly are they to be transported if not on our highways and existing rail? With the possible exception of that last leg to home in your personal car, trains, massive trucks on our super-highways, and phenomenally well organized commercial delivery services are moving all that crap with amazing efficiency. If we weren’t in quite such a hurry we could even get by with a lot less air-cargo.

No I’m not saying “good enough”, but drones??? Explain to me exactly how that will work and exactly how it will save... anything?

BTW, I’m SO tired of various stretches of highway which seem to be in perpetual reconstruction. But they are necessary. Perhaps we can make them more durable but meanwhile I’ll just keep repeating “jobs, jobs, jobs” as I wait in traffic.

[LarryKing]

On a related note, the US trucking industry is facing a driver shortage crisis due to current truckers retiring and lack of interest in the next generation to chose truck driving as a career. Autonomous delivery systems will probably/eventually take over.

[Jim Drago]

I swear, you have the biggest hard-on for this Loshak guy.

you may be on to something here... Man crush

[Jason J Ball]

It sounds like tribalism when the comments are focused on the 4% tail here at home, with little or nothing to propose or say about the 45%+ dog.  

 

Most have agreed we should do what we can, but furiously bailing out our wing of the Titanic isn't going to be a solution.  Do you want a solution, or do you demand 100.0% agreement from those who are essentially already your allies? 

I can't help you if you can't get past "tribalism". Get your mind off of 4%. Where we lead, others will follow. You sound like you want someone else to solve the problem because we can't effect change as we are only 4%. It's ok to pollute "X" much because they pollute "X+Y".  We fix what we can fix and the rest of the world will follow. We need to be a leader. Advocating that its pointless because of percentages is an untenable position,especially if you can capitalize on the solution(s)...   

[Steve Scheifler]

I can't help you if you can't get past "tribalism". Get your mind off of 4%. Where we lead, others will follow. You sound like you want someone else to solve the problem because we can't effect change as we are only 4%. It's ok to pollute "X" much because they pollute "X+Y". We fix what we can fix and the rest of the world will follow. We need to be a leader. Advocating that its pointless because of percentages is a tenable position,especially if you can capitalize on the solution...

Lead, others will follow. Sure, that worked well enough for the flag bearers in the civil war.

I don’t completely disagree with or disregard what you are saying but I do think you have a less than realistic point of view.

[Johnny D]

Lead, others will follow. Sure,

 

 

 

[Jason J Ball]

Odd to read someone slamming the very infrastructure which has been absolutely key to development and success in this country. And I’m not talking about getting your big screen TVs from port to Best Buy. Perhaps most critically railroads and highways have enabled the distribution of food from farms to grocers providing fresh dairy and produce year-round to absolutely every corner of the country. Mind you I’m pleased to see the grow-local buy-local trend catching on in more places but there is no way that will ever fully supply even a fraction of demand in areas of high population density in-season let alone out of season. Sure, efforts to develop soil-free and vertical farming etc are showing promise, but they still require a lot of space (by urban or suburban standards) and are quite expensive. Like alternative energy they have their place but aren’t even close to making a meaningful contribution.

But back to TVs and pretty much everything else you’ve ever owned, how exactly are they to be transported if not on our highways and existing rail? With the possible exception of that last leg to home in your personal car, trains, massive trucks on our super-highways, and phenomenally well organized commercial delivery services are moving all that crap with amazing efficiency. If we weren’t in quite such a hurry we could even get by with a lot less air-cargo.

No I’m not saying “good enough”, but drones??? Explain to me exactly how that will work and exactly how it will save... anything?

BTW, I’m SO tired of various stretches of highway which seem to be in perpetual reconstruction. But they are necessary. Perhaps we can make them more durable but meanwhile I’ll just keep repeating “jobs, jobs, jobs” as I wait in traffic.

One word "replicators"

[Sphinx]

I don't want the average village idiot anywhere near the controls in 3 dimensional space.  As a rule humans haven't demonstrated the ability to drive in a straight line, at a constant speed, without running into somebody.

Automated drones MAYBE. But, we are a really, really, long way away from that being a reality.   Since I design airplanes for a living...we are a VERY LONG way away from the FAA touching automated drones for the mass public, which takeoff/land/navigate in full-automatic mode with NO PILOT-IN-THE-LOOP, or even a qualified pilot on-board.  So far, in fact, that I'd be surprised if I live that long. The FAA is not getting more accepting of new technologies...or less rigorous in their safety requirements, that much is certain. 
 
We've only barely managed to create some automated cars which mostly don't run into each other, but are still struggling with "other" obstacles. There are better sensor technologies out there than what is being used today.  But, with capability comes expense...and a certain degree of human hazard, and size, weight, power, cooling constraints.
 
ETA: This isn't going to accelerate acceptance of full-autonomous vehicles, either:

https://www.ntsb.gov...010-prelim.aspx

 

Ignore it at your peril.  There are about 50 AV companies in Silicon Valley, and even the big boys are getting in on the action.  Every major car maker (Toyota, GM, VW, PSA, others) has an R&D center in the Valley working on AV's.  You should see the number of cars with manufacturer plates.  Intel now owns Mobile Eye, which is a major player in AV.

 

AV's are simply safer than humans.  They don't need to be perfect to be ready for prime time.  So, if they reduce our annual deaths by 1/2, should we wait to deploy them till they get to 100% perfect?  Remember, the Uber driver failed to pay attention in a prototype that required the user to pay attention.

 

On a related note, the US trucking industry is facing a driver shortage crisis due to current truckers retiring and lack of interest in the next generation to chose truck driving as a career. Autonomous delivery systems will probably/eventually take over.

 

And the teamsters are vigorously opposing anything that might cost them membership dues.  So, they are all about safety.  https://teamster.org...hicle-collision

 

That's why when congress passed AV standards last year, they did not include trucks.https://psmag.com/ec...driverless-tech

[Jason J Ball]

Lead, others will follow. Sure, that worked well enough for the flag bearers in the civil war.

I don’t completely disagree with or disregard what you are saying but I do think you have a less than realistic point of view.

 

What is unrealistic? I don't expect the problem to be solved overnight. There is no silver bullet to climate change, except maybe cold fusion. How's your quantum physics knowledge? Reduce carbon emissions be any means, combinations of solar, wind, hydro, even nuclear all will help. But government and policy has to support innovation. 

[gerglmuff2]

well glad i stayed out of this one. 

interesting that folks jump to electric cars and "OMG they are going to force us to drive leafs if i understand that the climate is changing and man is to blame"

when literally, that will not, and cannot happen. lets also note there is difference between political and economic policy, and science. the climate is changing, and human carbon gas emissions are to blame for it. that is scientific fact. this does not mean you are a communist if you believe it. it doesn't mean totalitarian government control of your life. it doesn't mean forcing everyone to drive shitty electric cars. it doesn't mean racing will be banned. it doesn't mean you can't eat bacon. 

it means we have a problem to solve. humanity is pretty damn good at things when we actually decide to do them. 

interestingly, the push for electric cars, and in fact, non-car ownership isn't going to come from climate change, its going to boil down to simple economics. personal car ownership will largely die out in the next 20 years. no this does not mean you wont be able to own a car. no this does not mean they will ban racing. no this does not mean you wont be able to eat bacon. it will happen totally smoothly, and the justification for most people to actually own a car will dry up, as electric and self driving cars become real. 

i think there are a lot of people who are scared of some possible solutions to the problem, that it has blinded them from accepting there is a problem in the first place. i'd be happy if we all just agree on the problem or that there is a problem at all. 

[Bench Racer]

I swear, you have the biggest hard-on for this Loshak guy.

 

 

you may be on to something here... Man crush

 

Naw, envious of his driving talent, yep could be. The interesting thing is, there's a guy from Breathless racing in FL who did Spec Miata and now has moved on to Trans Am. He, Loshak and some other seriously talented drivers have at it each Trans Am race weekend. I believe Loshak would blend in at the pointy end of Spec Miata rather quickly, contrary to one of our site contemporaries. 

[Jim Drago]

Naw, envious of his driving talent, yep could be. The interesting thing is, there's a guy from Breathless racing in FL who did Spec Miata and now has moved on to Trans Am. He, Loshak and some other seriously talented drivers have at it each Trans Am race weekend. I believe Loshak would blend in at the pointy end of Spec Miata rather quickly, contrary to one of our site contemporaries. 

You can believe all you like   Many others "believed" after winning in other classes that "they would blend in at the pointy end of Spec Miata rather quickly" and didn't

Only one way to tell, put him your rocket and send him to the Sprints.. If he podiums, I'll pay your entry