115 replies to this topic

[Tom Hampton]

Fixed that for you

Most of the clusterfuck pinhata party is rows 3-6 at most races that I've participated in

Fair. But, my point was really what would happen if a mass of fop drivers ended up in back. Not, a "normal" race.

[Jamz14]

Racing has never been about the ICE engine. If it was then we wouldn't have bicycle racing, running races, sail boat racing, ETC. Racing has ALWAYS been about the spirit of competition. From this perspective I believe Matt is on a fools errand. He is willfully choosing not to compete. Choosing to box someone with one hand tied behind your back is a stunt, not a competition.

 

Since the time the first automobile came off the line, people have been taking machines and competing with them. Manufactures of those machines have always used the racing to improve them. My understanding is that Mazda believes that there is much more efficiency to be had in the ICE engine. Racing has always been about getting more performance (including efficiency) from the parts used to compete e.g. shoes, sails, tires, engines, rackets, bats, etc. From this perspective I believe Matt is following in the footsteps of many racers before him and I applaud him. I am not saying that Matts data will be useful to Mazda. They have far more resources than we ever will. Which makes me wonder what the true objective of the experiment is about. IMO it is about taking advantage of the Zeitgeist of eco/green issues to advance personal objectives. And if so, I support him wholeheartedly in those goals. We all use racing to fulfill personal goals and objectives. My reasons for continuing to be involved are many and varied. And beating someone else(competing) isn't always at the top of that list. So Matt, go for it!!! I wish you well and will support and help you in any way I can.

 

As far as eco nazis coming after our ICE racing: No one is directly coming after your racing. Not in a big way. How our racing is becoming under threat is much less direct than that. It is with the advancements happening across the planet in propulsion and computer control systems. These advancements naturally make there way into the automotive market place from which we get our donors from. These advancements make it harder for the average guy to modify and race the platforms. For example, I have suggested many times that the answer to my concern that we really do have modified ECUs in our class was for the SM series to provide known ECUs at the race to competitors. I received push back on that idea as the ECUs and keys are now tied together making it difficult for that to happen. Bringing my thoughts around full circle: the fear that we will not be able to race even though the platforms are changing around us is a irrational fear if you believe that racing has always been about competing. The only thing that will change is the platform upon which we compete!!!! I have often said that my smile would be just as big if we were banging doors and having a blast racing CX-5s instead of MX-5s!!!! So when and if Mazda chooses to move to electricity, or to hydrogen, or to human waste powered cars, true racers will find a way to challenge each other in them.

 

All that said: I am glad I have lived to race the MX-5 platform as it is today. I can't think of a better car to do what we do with it.

[OrangeCrush86]

I think racing in itself is already quite efficient, simply because it's so expensive it has to operate like a lean business. This is why I think it will be hard to find significant savings.

 

Now from an objective view racing is extremely wasteful. No other household in the US is burning through two or 3 sets of tires annually. Endurance racing is even more extreme. Each team at 24 hours of Daytona is burning through 20+ sets of tires a weekend? Then the hundreds of gallons of fuel to drive in a circle? Hard to justify.

 

I feel we have to be careful with the "eco-lens" on any leisure activity because the conclusion will always be that it's wasteful.

[ECOBRAP]

Racing has ALWAYS been about the spirit of competition.

 

I am choosing to compete off the track as well, inviting other people to try and beat my efficiency while transporting to/from the track

 

 

I am not saying that Matts data will be useful to Mazda. 

 

Mazda has nothing to do with this? I am hoping that my data will be useful real world experience for others to become more efficient in their practices. If I can be competitive with a 22MPG towing setup, then so can you. Whether you choose to do so or not is up to you, but I just want the information out there.

 

 

IMO it is about taking advantage of the Zeitgeist of eco/green issues to advance personal objectives. 

 

That, OR after a recent trip to Europe I had an epiphany of how inefficient we are in the US. People over there are towing with Volkswagen TDI wagons getting an easy 25MPG while towing, and doing so safely. Here, we have a ZERO towing capacity on the same exact vehicle that has a 3500lb towing capacity in Europe. A result of American litigation (suing everything that moves), and American culture/marketing that upsells us on a 6L 450hp truck that we simply don't need to transport a car around. I call BS, and want to put better information out there. Yes I am looking into TDI towing options as well, but easier said than done due to hitch restrictions in the US.

 

If the YouTube channel takes off, cool. 99% chance that it won't! I just want the information out there, helps me have a purpose to race if I can do some good in the process.

 

 

This is why I think it will be hard to find significant savings.

 

As a result of my efficient truck/trailer upgrade, I am saving over 300 gallons of fuel this year. Not small by any means, especially if the racing community embraces the simplistic and efficient approach. If you think your vote counts, then you can save fuel as well.

 

As an additional note, we aren't just focusing on racing. Transport in general. The average US new vehicle gets 25MPG. In the UK, average new vehicle gets 42MPG. Totally embarrassing how inefficient we are. Don't need 5500lbs, 6 liters, and 400hp to get from point A to point B. I will be releasing videos on this as well, probably getting torn apart in the process, but want the information out there so my conscience is clear.

[Michael Novak]

I am choosing to compete off the track as well, inviting other people to try and beat my efficiency while transporting to/from the track

 

 

 

Mazda has nothing to do with this? I am hoping that my data will be useful real world experience for others to become more efficient in their practices. If I can be competitive with a 22MPG towing setup, then so can you. Whether you choose to do so or not is up to you, but I just want the information out there.

 

 

 

That, OR after a recent trip to Europe I had an epiphany of how inefficient we are in the US. People over there are towing with Volkswagen TDI wagons getting an easy 25MPG while towing, and doing so safely. Here, we have a ZERO towing capacity on the same exact vehicle that has a 3500lb towing capacity in Europe. A result of American litigation (suing everything that moves), and American culture/marketing that upsells us on a 6L 450hp truck that we simply don't need to transport a car around. I call BS, and want to put better information out there. Yes I am looking into TDI towing options as well, but easier said than done due to hitch restrictions in the US.

 

If the YouTube channel takes off, cool. 99% chance that it won't! I just want the information out there, helps me have a purpose to race if I can do some good in the process.

 

 

 

As a result of my efficient truck/trailer upgrade, I am saving over 300 gallons of fuel this year. Not small by any means, especially if the racing community embraces the simplistic and efficient approach. If you think your vote counts, then you can save fuel as well.

 

As an additional note, we aren't just focusing on racing. Transport in general. The average US new vehicle gets 25MPG. In the UK, average new vehicle gets 42MPG. Totally embarrassing how inefficient we are. Don't need 5500lbs, 6 liters, and 400hp to get from point A to point B. I will be releasing videos on this as well, probably getting torn apart in the process, but want the information out there so my conscience is clear.

Interesting perspective...  

 

a couple of added points though:  Price wise fuel in the UK is averaging $6.00 a gallon---that and a lack of parking is why small cars and small SUVs rule there. Trailering in much of Europe requires a special license and are limited to around 60mph- because the vehicles are undersized for the load. European crash standards and higher emission levels have been lower allowing for better fuel economy---be careful on your thoughts---less safe vehicles ---putting out higher emissions........

[Tom Sager]

 

As an additional note, we aren't just focusing on racing. Transport in general. The average US new vehicle gets 25MPG. In the UK, average new vehicle gets 42MPG. Totally embarrassing how inefficient we are. Don't need 5500lbs, 6 liters, and 400hp to get from point A to point B. I will be releasing videos on this as well, probably getting torn apart in the process, but want the information out there so my conscience is clear.

 

We can find excess in nearly everything we do as a society.  Eating, drinking, water consumption, electrical consumption, travel, etc....  Vehicles owned here in the U.S. on average get less fuel economy because we enjoy less expensive fuel and culturally this population likes bigger, heavier, more powerful but less fuel efficient vehicles.  It's evidence of the freedom and liberty we enjoy in this country.  In this politically charged environment on, well the environment, it's good to point out the the U.S. is the nation which recently has most reduced carbon emissions along with other pollutants.  We're heading in the right direction and faster than other nations (see link).  There's a good argument for us staying the course and allowing cleaner technology to make its way into the market as it makes economic sense through reasonable government regulation and consumer choice.  Europe's fuel cost is so much higher than ours mostly due to very high taxes on it and greater distribution costs.  Doing the same here (hiking fuel taxes) would have a significant negative effect on our economy and would anger much of our population IMO. 

 

Your project is interesting and personally I look forward to your updates and progress.   

 

https://www.forbes.c...g/#15661b9f5cdb

[Jeff Wasilko]

As an additional note, we aren't just focusing on racing. Transport in general. The average US new vehicle gets 25MPG. In the UK, average new vehicle gets 42MPG. Totally embarrassing how inefficient we are. Don't need 5500lbs, 6 liters, and 400hp to get from point A to point B. I will be releasing videos on this as well, probably getting torn apart in the process, but want the information out there so my conscience is clear.

 

UK Gallons are 20% bigger than US gallons. So that's 33.6 miles/US gallon.

[ECOBRAP]

UK Gallons are 20% bigger than US gallons. So that's 33.6 miles/US gallon.

 

42MPG is after the conversion, so I am indeed referring to the US metric. 

 

The UK metric is 51.7MPG average for gasoline vehicles. Which means I might have actually calculated it wrong, because that would mean 43MPG(US).

[ECOBRAP]

Interesting perspective...  

 

a couple of added points though:  Price wise fuel in the UK is averaging $6.00 a gallon---that and a lack of parking is why small cars and small SUVs rule there. Trailering in much of Europe requires a special license and are limited to around 60mph- because the vehicles are undersized for the load. European crash standards and higher emission levels have been lower allowing for better fuel economy---be careful on your thoughts---less safe vehicles ---putting out higher emissions........

 

Fuel Price:

 

Yep, $6 per gallon certainly forces people to be more efficient. Do I think we should jump our fuel prices to $6/gallon to force this on Americans? Absolutely not, our lack of an efficient public transportation service means we are limited to cars in way more scenarios than Europeans. That being said, just because it is cheaper, doesn't mean we have to use more of it.

 

But as for higher emissions levels causing a 25MPG to 42MPG jump. The key is that in Europe their average engine size is probably 1.2L or something like that. I have no idea what it is in the US, but I would guess 3.0L for a national average. Totally unnecessary for A-B transportation. They do just fine putting along at 80mph in their 1.2L ecobox.

 

The most efficient gasoline vehicle we have in the US is the Mitsubishi Mirage with, you guessed it, a 1.2L three cylinder. It gets 37-45mpg easily.

 

Just wish we had a less-boring option LOL. For example, in Europe, the Volkswagen Up GTI, powered by a 1.0L 3 cylinder turbo. Would cost less than $20k USD. Gets 42MPG(US) and looks fun as hell. I would buy that thing SO fast if they sold it in the US.

 

Safety:

 

As for safety, this I do agree with. I enjoy our strict safety standards, but we are currently in a never-ending cycle of people buying larger cars to be safer than their neighbor. Pretty soon we will be all driving around in M4 Sherman Tanks (although that does sound kind of fun).

 

Cars are getting safer, but the number of annual deaths is not going down. Still 30-40k people each year which is nuts.

 

After a quick search, although they drive in small cars, the death rate per capita in the United Kingdom is 4-5x lower than ours. Wow. Folks, send your kids to defensive driving courses, and force them to drive a manual so they have to actually pay attention.

 

 

Towing Speed:

 

I agree, it would be easier for me to justify a TDI towing experience in California, because our towing limit is 55mph. I guarantee my TDI towing (a trailer WITH brakes obviously) at 55mph is safer than the 15,000lbs most people are hauling at 80mph to their destination. I believe my stopping distance would be shorter, because braking distance is exponential with speed.

 

To me it's ridiculous that you can drive 26,000lbs or so without a CDL, and can do 80mph in the process.

[ECOBRAP]

Your project is interesting and personally I look forward to your updates and progress.   

 

https://www.forbes.c...g/#15661b9f5cdb

 

Great article, and a sign of progress. But I will throw in a quick note that US reduction percentage was 1.4%, while the UK was 3.5%.

 

As for fuel cost, vehicles, and pricing, I think I responded my thoughts to Michael up above!

[Steve Scheifler]

I don’t question your sincerity but you seem to oversimplify pretty much every point you make, and so far from my perspective I see nothing practical in any of it except *maybe* running a cat rather than a muffler, and even if done correctly I’d want it proved that they are effective under racing conditions.

[ECOBRAP]

I don’t question your sincerity but you seem to oversimplify pretty much every point you make, and so far from my perspective I see nothing practical in any of it except *maybe* running a cat rather than a muffler, and even if done correctly I’d want it proved that they are effective under racing conditions.

 

That's a shame, because the whole point of this is to keep it simple enough for everyone to do. Simple tow vehicle, simple trailer, and you can still be competitive. A 3L minivan with an open trailer will get good mileage, and can still store everything you need.

 

The majority of savings are from transport, not the racing itself.

[Steve Scheifler]

Some quick searching & reading finds that a correctly designed cat can work well on most race cars and they are required by many racing organizations in europe. But the emphasis is on correctly designed. And let's not forget the ongoing emissions defeat code scandal in Europe where essentially all auto makers are at least somewhat guilty of fudging their numbers. BTW I find it more than a little amusing that you seem so enamored by the truly infamous TDI. A bit like recruiting Jimmy Savile to call on the Pope about curbing the sexual abuse of children.

[Steve Scheifler]

Actually, the trailer and tow rig least of all. Forget for a moment that we always run multiple cars, as do most people with huge rigs getting the 8mpg you quote. And many people are arrive & drive with 5 or more in a big rig. I expect they can feel pretty superior already, except of course that they also need to get to the track. But hey, let’s eliminate crew and our few spectators, that will save a LOT of fuel.

Honestly, I can’t think of anything sillier than going to all the expense and trouble to build, maintain and transport a race car only to leave behind the extra sets of wheels & tires, transmission, diff, suspension, tools etc. that can salvage a race weekend. I started with 1 car behind a Suburban. Sure, it can be done and there are guys who enjoy the simplicity, but it is not without increased risk of getting little or nothing for all that trouble and expense. And we aren’t pulling a mere 90 miles one way like in your video, or in Europe where countries are the size of some of our states. You may think a TDI or minivan handles it just fine but make a few trips through the Ozarks & Smokies let alone real mountains and see how it goes. What’s the carbon footprint of engine and transmission rebuilds? And how good does that extra few MPG stack up in cost then?

Sorry, I’m not a hater or a denier. I’ve tried to look at this from different angles and just don’t see anything practical and meaningful. You may as well ask people to not use the AC in their cars during the summer, it would have a greater impact with less risk.

[ECOBRAP]

TDI

 

TDI's have had their software updated to fix the emissions rigging, and dealers are selling them for an absolute steal ($10-13k) with a 2yr unlimited mile warranty. Diesels in general are getting very complicated from an emissions control perspective, so at some point I would like to try a small displacement turbo gas truck like the new Ford Ranger, and see what kind of mileage I can get in that. Interesting tradeoff between low end torque that make diesels so effective/efficient at towing, versus the unreliable/cheating emissions control systems.

 

As for engine/trans rebuilds, I would assume we build 5x as many trans as European countries due to our obsession with automatics. Give me a stick shift diesel Ford Transit van like they have and I will make it last 20 years.

 

As stated, the TDI may only work for me because I live in California, no major mountain ranges for me, and 55mph limit. But thanks for bringing up the skepticism, seems like it would be waste of time to demonstrate if it isn't practical for the other 90% of the country. I will try to stick with 1500 series trucks and vans for now.

 

That being said, my 3L Ram EcoDiesel would scale those mountains all day long, and get over 20MPG in the process. A truck that cost $26k out the door, $10k less than the average American vehicle purchase price. A trailer that cost me $6k, pretty normal for an all aluminum trailer. So if that isn't a "practical and meaningful" data point, to become more efficient, I'm not sure what is. I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

Spares

 

In my 4 years of racing SM, I think I have had two mechanical DNF's. One Mazdacomp diff (swapped to Torsen straight away), and one motor (user error, 3rd to 1st gear, sorry Ron!). I don't need to bring all that stuff with me considering such a low failure rate, even while running at the front end of the field. We are very fortunate to run in such a reliable class. After saying this, I am sure I have jinxed myself, so it's going to be a long season! 

 

Jokes aside, I am still bringing a decent spares package which are the things that I would likely need. Full set of spare wheels/tires, full set of front and rear hub assemblies, rotors and pads, fluids, and lots of other small common SM items. It's not like I am showing up to the track barebones, I've still got 90% of the things I will need. The other 10%, I can scrounge locally at the track or nearby if I need to.

 

Scaling

 

I will be making a video on this at some point. If you are getting 8MPG while towing 3 cars to the track? That is more efficient than me, effectively 24MPG per vehicle transported, and I love it. Not carpooling, we'll call it "Racepooling" for now.

 

If I get a two car trailer, and get 16MPG towing a friend's car to the track as well. That's an effective 32MPG per vehicle. Would love to try at some point. But like you said, will have to calculate in personal transport for the drivers themselves.

 

The above said, I will be considering the most fuel efficient way to get my car (and me) to Ohio for NASA Nationals. Is that putting it on a 5 car trailer across the country? Towing a friend's car as well? Or just renting a vehicle from a close team, and driving myself over there? Should be fun to crunch the numbers and find out.

[OrangeCrush86]

You could sell your entire setup, buy a sim racing rig, and be extremely eco friendly with your only environmental impact being electricity and cheetoh consumption.

[gerglmuff2]

its kinda amazing how bent out of shape folks are getting over your own personal project. 

like, am i going to do this any time soon? probably not. 

is it interesting and am i happy someone is trying something a bit different? yup.

will you find out things that will be interesting to people in the future? totally. 

does reading about your experience make me think differently or bring up alternatives to how i would normally have done something, even if its small? yeah. 

never ceases to amaze me how crabby folks get about something you are choosing to do yourself, and not mandating, not pressuring, not anything to anyone else, and they are still pissed at you for it. never understood it. you do you, and keep posting, cause it is interesting. 

[Michael Novak]

Matt,

 

A little background-- I live in the automotive testing world. We completed 112,000,000 miles last year of testing around the global for 75% of the OEMs in the world(not including the 400 plus startups in China). Lots of towing---mixed in.

 

I don't agree with all of what you are trying to do, but its not my project---I am just asking questions to provoke thought. When you are ready to try some of the same things in the business world give me a ring.

 

PS. I have a A7 TDI and I still believe in diesels...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

you mean you cant just teleport your car over to Mid Ohio for nationals??? WTF

 

You should probably skip qualifying at nationals to just start the race DFL in 18th!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

One other suggestion, Danny seems to be full of hot air alot can that be harnessed in some way and used as energy? BAHHAHHHAAHJHHAAAA