Jump to content

Photo

Tire management

* * * * * 1 votes

  • Please log in to reply
249 replies to this topic

Poll: tire management (78 member(s) have cast votes)

Do we need a tire management program

  1. yes (69 votes [88.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 88.46%

  2. no (5 votes [6.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.41%

  3. undecided (4 votes [5.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

Opinions on proposed program

  1. I like it is as is, no changes (50 votes [64.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.10%

  2. I don't like it (3 votes [3.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  3. I like it but it needs some work (25 votes [32.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.05%

Do you agree with the tire replacement part of the proposal?

  1. yes, leave it as is (50 votes [64.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.10%

  2. no not at all (4 votes [5.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

  3. yes I agree but the plan needs work (24 votes [30.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.77%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

Driving back from Mid Ohio and thinking about tires and the amount of tires needed and i am going through to compete and it really got me thinking..  

Mid Ohio has typically been a 3-10 session tire track, not so this weekend. Most of the front runners went through at least 1 set of stickers. I used two.   Heading to the Sprints, hoping to use two, but likely will be three sets.  This is out of control.. It is also discouraging to those that don't want to buy tires ( none of want to buy tires btw) 

 

Here is what I sent in to the smac.. Feel free to comment. FWIW, we are under contract with Hoosier and while I hope the SM8 is a great tire.. Limiting the number of tires is not the same or really even related to getting a longer lasting tire. We need both!  But first we start limiting the amount we are permitted to use. 

 

Jim

 

 

Tire costs and management

 

Tire costs and the required budgets are hurting our class and it is eventually going to contribute to its’ demise. Tires are by far the most expensive part of racing in general and that should not be the case in a spec class. Tire wars are senseless and counter spec class philosophy, yet we see it in SM at EVERY Super Tour race, most majors and even some regionals.  My average tire cost at this point is $235 per each  session on track.. That is insane!  The current SM7 tires are raceable three sessions, maybe four.  After that, they are practice tires.  Even at Mid Ohio, the last of the “Old Tire” tracks.. the top guys almost all went through two sets of stickers.  I did for sure.  

We have tried for years to find the magical tire that doesn’t need to be shaved and lasts 15-20 raceable sessions, it doesn’t exist.  200 treadwear tires are basically a myth and trying to reinvent the wheel with a brand-new tire likely will be expensive and not likely work, in the end we will find ways around it and to make them better and end up where we are now anyway.  You need to save the class from itself! We need to limit the number of tires used per event.

I think I have a very good plan that I am sure you guys can start with, tweak and make even better.  It would likely cut my annual tire budget by 50-60% as I go through a minimum of two sets of stickers per Super Tour and Three at the Sprints. It will level the playing field as now guys can show up and know they are competing on the same level regarding tires or at worse only losing to a guy buying only one set of tires, not three.

 

Here is what I am proposing…

 

When you register for each race and you get your tech sheet. You will also be handed a sheet that has 6 tamper proof stickers on it.  That sheet will have four individual stickers approximately 1.5x 1.5 in and two stickers approx. 4x6 in.   The small stickers will go on each tire. The bigger stickers on the doors like a runoff’s stickers.  Each sticker will be serialized and tamper proof.  The door stickers and your tire sticker numbers will match. These can even be bar coded if you felt it would be easier, but don’t really see the need.

 

You will be required to run these four tires for the entire weekend for any qualifying or race sessions.  You can run unmarked tires for practice if you like.   

 

You will not be required to buy 4 new tires.. When you get to the track, you decide what four tires you want to run in the timed sessions.  You can run four new, 4 used or any combination you like.  But once you chose the tires, they are your tires for the weekend.

 

The tires now become a techable part of the car..  no different than a restrictor plate.  If you are teched post qualifying or race, the stickers on the tires and the doors must match.  If you try and run someone else’s tires, tamper with the sticker etc. you are disqualified for the weekend, times disallowed or whatever the appropriate penalty should be. What if someone puts a new set of stickers on and they don’t get pulled in to get teched? Well, what if someone pulled their plate and didn’t get teched? It’s the same thing. I believe most will be happy to comply and want to be on a level field and save some money and only sticker up for an advantage or not to be at a disadvantage.

 

Obviously wet tires can be used any time and no need for a sticker or marking program their imo.

 

There are no legitimate objections to this plan, it accomplishes the main goals and will be VERY easy to implement and will take very little to no additional man power.  Start in Super Tours and majors only.

  1. We can run the Sm7 or SM8 , no need to change tires. 
  2. We don’t need more than one set per weekend regardless of opinions. That’s only 4 sessions at most
  3. It does not force you to buy new, addresses budget conscience or those thinking older tires are the right tire for a specific track.
  4. If you are on some management plan where want to work in old and new or two sets, well I’m sorry. Think about what is best for the class, not your personal program. We need to address the majority, not the minority at the front or at the back.  This is best for most of the class.
  5. Man power, this is basically a zero-man power solution, zero logistic solution.
  6. Tech is already looking at things and always looking for one more thing to look for, now they have one.

 

 

 

Addressing Flat spots, Punctures, cuts, wreck damage…

  1. You can replace 1 tire at any time if you have any issues with the tires at all, no questions asked. It MUST be replaced with a USED tire. No penalty applied.
  2. If you have to replace 2 or more tires FOR ANY REASON, you can change up to  all four( again only with used tires), but you will be starting the next session from the rear of the field, no exceptions.  If it is race one, you can use that time to qualify for race two. It should not be a compounding penalty IMO.  But should and must discourage competitors from changing tires unless necessary.

 

I realize the testing is ongoing on the SM8.. This plan while is about tires, it is completely different issue than SM7 vs SM8.  If the SM8 is a success, that is great. But we still need to implement this program and limit the number of tires we are using. If the Sm8 is an improvement, then perhaps we can get back to running the same set for two or three weekends. You can simply put new stickers on the same tire for each event. This system still works and is desperately needed. This will help the class tremendously!

 

 

Thanks

Jim Drago


  • Tom Hampton, Cnj, mellen and 2 others like this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#2
gerglmuff2

gerglmuff2

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Location:St Paul MN
  • Region:LOL
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:81

generally speaking, i like this idea. but im also only a divisional guy, who might end up at a local majors a few times. 


Gordon Kuhnley: Rookie


#3
Chris Lefferdink

Chris Lefferdink

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 22 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:Florida
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:12

This should definitely be implemented, it would be great for the class.  It should also be expanded to regionals, where people are typically even more budget conscious.  Attendance at tracks like PBIR has always struggled because stickers are worth so much time there.



#4
Camaro67racer

Camaro67racer

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Car Year:2010
  • Car Number:20

This is well thought out. Thanks, Jim.

I have a scenario that comes to mind because this class races so close...I've had my heat cycle markings on the sidewall get wiped off from various rubs or touches. So, what happens if you finish the race and get tech'd, but during the race you and another guy touched wheels, or maybe you brushed a wall and you're missing one or two stickers? (I guess best practice would be to put them on the inside of the tire? But that's not as easy for tech to see)

Or how do we know the stickers will all stay on if it rains during a race where we started on drys? 

I'm sure this will happen so just wanted to think about it up front.


Jon Yanca

2003 SM

 

Former cars:
2010 MX-5 T4

2001 SM

1996 SM


#5
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 393 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there anyway that Hoosier can imprint a serial number directly on each tire it makes? Then you only need to add your tire serial numbers to your tech card and can skip the sticker system.

 

The big dogs have every tire RFID tagged.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#6
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

This plan is very good and could be implemented relatively quickly, certainly for 2020.  Let's do it as soon as it's possible.  Just as important as a new rule such as this IMO is the need for a longer lasting tire.  1 full set per event is still too expensive.  This rule and a tire that is good (competitive) for 8 heat cycles or more would put us back about where we were in SCCA on the RA-1 budget-wise. That's where we need to be.  Limit us to 4-5 tires per event with a tire that lasts 2 or more events.  If we can get both changes in place that'll be very meaningful to the class.

 

Jeff Luckritz and I were speaking at Gingerman a couple weeks ago about the June Sprints coming up.  I told him the cost to field competitive tires for the event over 3 days was pretty steep and that I probably wouldn't enter for that reason (for 2nd year in a row and 3 of last 4 I believe).  We talked about posting a challenge here (similar to the P.O.G. plain old gas years ago) to enlist drivers voluntarily to limit themselves to 4 tires for the entire event.  I never posted it as I'm still iffy in terms of entering, but it's not too late for someone to run with the idea.  We talked about marking the cars and tires somehow, honor system, have our own impound area and throwing a few bucks in for some contingency awards.  Just like P.O.G. form years ago (thanks Steve).  This could be a pilot event for Jim's proposal even if only a portion of the field is on board. 


  • Jim Drago likes this
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#7
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 393 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

One problem with the "one set per weekend" limit is that if I show up and only race Sunday I will be able to beat Drago with my stickers. :)


  • Jim Drago likes this

____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#8
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

This is well thought out. Thanks, Jim.

I have a scenario that comes to mind because this class races so close...I've had my heat cycle markings on the sidewall get wiped off from various rubs or touches. So, what happens if you finish the race and get tech'd, but during the race you and another guy touched wheels, or maybe you brushed a wall and you're missing one or two stickers? (I guess best practice would be to put them on the inside of the tire? But that's not as easy for tech to see)

Or how do we know the stickers will all stay on if it rains during a race where we started on drys? 

I'm sure this will happen so just wanted to think about it up front.

Some of this we will have to address on case by case, but I agree this could happen. We will have to see if the stickers are actually as good as we think they can be. If this happens and is found in tech. I would "think" a common sense approach would be if the official agrees with your version, he issues a new sticker for that tire or tires with no penalty.  But obviously some of the details would need to work out


  • Camaro67racer likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#9
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,532 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Car Year:1995

I'm with Jim! An example from our local race this weekend...

 

Stickers in qual...fast lap of weekend.

Same tires in first race, .4 slower but top 3 ran the 2 cycle tires...pole sitter won. 

Same tires for pole setter and race 1 winner along with P2 finisher from race 1(both on 3rd cycle)...P3 and P4 for 2nd race on stickers...drove around P1 and P2 starters with ease. 

3 cycle tires had nothing for stickers!


  • Jim Drago likes this

Ron

RAmotorsports

2014 NASA SM Western States Champion(Car owner)

2015 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2016 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2018 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA NORCAL SM Series Leader

2018 NASA NORCAL SM Series Leader

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#10
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there anyway that Hoosier can imprint a serial number directly on each tire it makes? Then you only need to add your tire serial numbers to your tech card and can skip the sticker system.

 

The big dogs have every tire RFID tagged.

We have to use the "KISS" plan or it wont happen. 

 

If Hoosier has to serialize the tires , we add man power and enforcement problems.. We have to get officials to record the numbers, make stickers etc all after the fact. More work and potential problems will kill this quickly.  People are inherently lazy :) This plan is mostly administered with VERY little help from anyone but the competitor. If we want to try it, I think that will need to be the case or we will get push back. 


  • av8tor and gerglmuff2 like this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#11
Chris Ciufo

Chris Ciufo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13 posts
  • Region:Finger Lakes
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:34

In karts and IMSA you bring your tires in to be marked before quali (this could happen during impound all afterwards for the sake of convenience). They used a distinct stamp and paint color that was unique to each event. The paint never had any issues with rain or heat and with the textured sidewalls it will seep into the grooves (even with tire rub you can usually tell if something was there.)



#12
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 393 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

We have to use the "KISS" plan or it wont happen. 

 

If Hoosier has to serialize the tires , we add man power and enforcement problems.. We have to get officials to record the numbers, make stickers etc all after the fact. More work and potential problems will kill this quickly.  People are inherently lazy :) This plan is mostly administered with VERY little help from anyone but the competitor. If we want to try it, I think that will need to be the case or we will get push back. 

 

I should of specified if it was possible as a requirement for the SM8 that each tire be serialized in some way.


  • Spencer Rutherford likes this

____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#13
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

One problem with the "one set per weekend" limit is that if I show up and only race Sunday I will be able to beat Drago with my stickers. :)

 

That crossed my mind too LOL.

 

Seriously we might have to make a rule that says you have to run 50% or more of qualifying session laps in order to have a valid qualifying time. 


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#14
gerglmuff2

gerglmuff2

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Location:St Paul MN
  • Region:LOL
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:81

One problem with the "one set per weekend" limit is that if I show up and only race Sunday I will be able to beat Drago with my stickers. :)

 

so try!

it certainly makes one question there tire strategy a bit more.


  • Jim Drago likes this

Gordon Kuhnley: Rookie


#15
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

I should of specified if it was possible as a requirement for the SM8 that each tire be serialized in some way.

It is possible and I am sure Hoosier would do it..  Still would create more work, not less..  Someone has to record those numbers. Some one has to record those numbers to your car etc. 

 

With handed out stickers.. It is all on competitor other than SCCA registration handing you a sheet of stickers with your tech sticker


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#16
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

so try!

it certainly makes one question there tire strategy a bit more.

 

I can see skipping one of the qualifying sessions if track was damp, hot or clearly going to be slower?  I can see running fewer laps in qualifying and sacrificing my potential grid position in order to have slightly fresher tires.  Not sure if that is good, bad or just part of racing and strategy?


  • Michael Novak and av8tor like this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#17
av8tor

av8tor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 191 posts
  • Location:Ybor City
  • Region:SouthEast
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:121

This should definitely be implemented, it would be great for the class.  It should also be expanded to regionals, where people are typically even more budget conscious.  Attendance at tracks like PBIR has always struggled because stickers are worth so much time there.

You are right Chris, that LFT takes a beating at PBIR and rotating just moves the worn tire to another corner but I think the attendance at PBIR suffers more because the facilities are pathetic. I would rather spend the weekend in a field of cowpatties with my enduro bike than spend it at PBIR. At least at some field in the middle of FLO there are working porta poties.



#18
av8tor

av8tor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 191 posts
  • Location:Ybor City
  • Region:SouthEast
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:121

I like it Jim. You are dead right. It must be kept as simple as possible. Stickers are pretty simple.


  • Jim Drago likes this

#19
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 393 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I know you say that old tires could be chosen as your select four, but in reality I think this system would force everyone to buy at least ONE set of tires per weekend.

 

It would not help many on a strict budget. For example when I race I often will only sticker up if I have a good chance to run at the front.

 

For example: I have car setup or mechanical problems during qualifying and end up towards the back of the pack. Now I'm forced to burn up my 1 HC tires racing for 20th. Normally in a case like this I might shelf the 1 HC tires and put on some 5 or 6 HC tires for the race. With this system I am forced to "waste" my new tires or not race at all.


  • Alberto and RWP80000 like this

____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#20
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,029 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

I know you say that old tires could be chosen as your select four, but in reality I think this system would force everyone to buy at least ONE set of tires per weekend.

 

It would not help many on a strict budget. For example when I race I often will only sticker up if I have a good chance to run at the front.

 

For example: I have car setup or mechanical problems during qualifying and end up towards the back of the pack. Now I'm forced to burn up my 1 HC tires racing for 20th. Normally in a case like this I might shelf the 1 HC tires and put on some 5 or 6 HC tires for the race. With this system I am forced to "waste" my new tires or not race at all.

 

None of that is entirely accurate..

 

First... Budget guys etc.. They may be at a disadvantage used versus one set of stickers? How is that not better than racing three sets of stickers? We cant make this perfect, but make it better for 90% of the class.

 

In your mechanical scenario.. You can pull the one session tires off, get four new tire stickers and put them on an older set and finish the weekend with that set and save your 1 session set, just start from the back of next session which sounds like about where you would be in that example? 


  • av8tor likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America




2 user(s) are reading this topic

1 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Adax