285 replies to this topic

[granracing]

At the TransAm race last weekend, I was speaking with one of the teams about how they do something similar by stamping the tires.  Would be interesting to look into how they manage the tires and tracking to compare.

[OrangeCrush86]

None of that is entirely accurate..

 

First... Budget guys etc.. They may be at a disadvantage used versus one set of stickers? How is that not better than racing three sets of stickers? We cant make this perfect, but make it better for 90% of the class.

 

In your mechanical scenario.. You can pull the one session tires off, get four new tire stickers and put them on an older set and finish the weekend with that set and save your 1 session set, just start from the back of next session which sounds like about where you would be in that example? 

 

It's probably better for the class like you say. If you are coming to a track with 3 HC tires then there probably isn't much difference between your competitor having 1 set of stickers or 3.

 

You are viewing the issue as national front runner and I'm viewing it from a mid pack budget racer. You run stickers every weekend so "locking" into a single set of new tires makes sense for you. Where I race, having maximum flexibility to rotate in my lowest HC set of tires is what makes sense.

 

So this system is harder for me to support because basically you are saying if you need to swap tires go to the back, sorry you didn't bring a new set this weekend.

[Jim Drago]

It's probably better for the class like you say. If you are coming to a track with 3 HC tires then there probably isn't much difference between your competitor having 1 set of stickers or 3.

 

You are viewing the issue as national front runner and I'm viewing it from a mid pack budget racer. You run stickers every weekend so "locking" into a single set of new tires makes sense for you. Where I race, having maximum flexibility to rotate in my lowest HC set of tires is what makes sense.

 

So this system is harder for me to support because basically you are saying if you need to swap tires go to the back, sorry you didn't bring a new set this weekend.

 

 

At ANY form of racing unfortunately if you are coming what amounts to be unprepared or short on budget you are going to be at a disadvantage. Not sure I have a solution for that.

 

I'm viewing it as what is best for the class, not as a front runner. My tire cost for two sets this weekend was a net zero . 

 

 

Your last sentence I don't understand.. it's not about "You" If "Anyone" decides to swap all four tires, they start their next session from the back. It allows you the opportunity to save good tires if you like. It penalizes a guy that wants to try and substitute in more tires.  At some point we need to take responsibility for our own problems..  whether they be prep, mechanical, bad luck or driving.  I think it will cycle around to all at some point. 

 

 

But yeah, it may not be for you, just my best shot at it. This just makes it more "fair" and far less expensive for all.  It may not work well for all, which is why it is good to discuss. But my goal is to please the  80%, not the 10% on either extreme.  

[Mitch Reading]

HECK YEA, please do!  ... SMAC members, what say you?

[Tom Hampton]

I voted "yes" / "as is".  I like it.  Maybe it might need some tweaking, maybe not.  But, I think that should be done after trying it out for a few weekends.  Adjust as needed for situations that arise...rather than try and make it "perfect" out of the shoot. 

[RazerX]

First, I like it, I am budget racer and run mostly NASA with RRs. But this still levels the playing field for the front half of the field IMO.  Two things;

First, lets not forget the business angle here, the tire manufactures LOVE it the way it is, good revenue for them.  If there are any backroom dealings with official tire for the series and the race organization (SCCA and NASA) there may be a conflict of interest.  i.e. public support for what is good for the class, but may run hidden tactics to defeat it for their pocket and their tire sponsor.  Eyes open. 

 

I like the paint idea over the sticker.  Easier to manage, apply, lower costs, harder to cheat (can't take it off and put on another tire, etc..)

 

I would like the idea of have 5 tires marked.  If you flat spot, or get hit and have a tire damaged you have options without trying find someone to get more tires marked or going to the back, because some @##$#$ dive bombed you and ruined a tire.  

 

Great idea.  Not to put work on the SM directors, but if the racers wanted to do this the SM director could assign someone each event to mark tires, moving the responsibility and encouraging racer interaction prior to the event.  

[Bench Racer]

Great idea.  Not to put work on the SM directors, but if the racers wanted to do this the SM director could assign someone each event to mark tires, moving the responsibility and encouraging racer interaction prior to the event.  

Help me out, within the SCCA what is a SM director?

[Martinracing98]

I like it for Majors. I do not think it should be used for Regionals. I think plenty at regionals are using multiple sets of used tires. For majors I think it reduces cost. For regionals it I think it raises cost and I do not think people buying multipe sets for a regional weekend is as much of a problem.

[Bench Racer]

I like it for Majors. I do not think it should be used for Regionals. I think plenty at regionals are using multiple sets of used tires. For majors I think it reduces cost. For regionals it I think it raises cost and I do not think people buying multipe sets for a regional weekend is as much of a problem.

Spec Class equals spec rules and everything should be the same for all races, Regional, Divisional, Majors and Super Tour. With the Spec7 class which was previous to the Spec Maita class, Regions bastardized the rules and frigged up the class so bad one couldn't race in some Regions because they had headers and other nonsense rules changes.

[Martinracing98]

Spec Class equals spec rules and everything should be the same for all races, Regional, Divisional, Majors and Super Tour. With the Spec7 class which was previous to the Spec Maita class, Regions bastardized the rules and frigged up the class so bad one couldn't race in some Regions because they had headers and other nonsense rules changes.

I wrote regional, but meant divisional. I think all regions should have same rules, but I think there needs to be a way for divisional races to not have cost go up because of a measure that has majors cost go down.

[dfuser]

Would love to see it implemented. We need help keeping this class affordable and allow more drivers to compete.

[luckymiata76]

This is such an easy thing for us to do, we should do it. Plus, it would create another strategic aspect of racing-tire management. 

 

Jeff

[JCOgle]

Aside from the commercial interests of Hoosier, with whom SCCA as at least somewhat aligned, I don't see a reason NOT to push for something like this. I'm sure there are certain scenarios that would make things challenging for some, however for the larger population and the preservation of the class (much less club racing overall), something needs to be done to restrain costs for the average racer. I for one would LOVE to see a situation where the racer on 3 heat cycle tires isn't at an overwhelming disadvantage to the driver on stickers. It would encourage me to race more. 

[OrangeCrush86]

I would prefer to know the SM8 release date before voting. I have not heard anyone on Toyo RR asking for a system like this.

 

Otherwise I'll do whatever. Seems like everyone supports it.

[Pat Mcg]

good with it as is..   as with anything new...  there will be some growing pains.. as long as everyone is on the same page...  Serial number on tire or a tech stamp is probably the best way to control...  IDK if the sticker will hold up...I am certain you have it solved in your mind Jim so i am confident you got this...  QUestion.. how to prevent tire sticker switch swap etc..  Just don't know.  Again.  ANYTHING is better than what we have... 

 

Saw your point on the 200 TW tire... Just want to highlight... not proposing.  But just highlighting..  My Tire cost in Champcar at Charlotte was $420.00 bucks.  that was for 14 hours.  We ran within tenths of a second of our fastest time in the end as we did at the beginning..  IT would be interesting to test a regional SM class with 200 TW open DOT tire just to see the interest...  Open door for lower cost drivers to get out there an wheel and stop loosing them to Champcar/WRL/ Etc...  Exactly why I have a champcar now... 

 

The Contingency will go away i suspect... or the tire price per tire will go up..  Simple business... less sales... less money..   It's not like Hoosier was just being generous and giving away free tires... those tires were paid for by all the slow poke idiots like me paying for stickers...  Basically a donation to the fast ones to drive on stickers... 

[FTodaro]

Here is an unpopular opinion. I will start out with that I like Hoosier as a company, its people,  its product and the level of support they provide. Comparing to Toyo (no support) there is no comparison, IMO. 

 

However, the three biggest costs to racing on any weekend in no order is

Travel/lodging

Registration fees

Tires

 

I applaud Jim for trying to put a lid on the tire costs, but another way to take a swing at that is to go to either a specific 200 TW tire or make it open to any 200TW tire. They are cheap and last a long time. 

 

It is easy to implement. It would take some of the advantage away from the top teams as they would not be showered with contingency tires. When your on the podium every weekend winning tires, the pain of stickers is not as great. The guy who is not that good or lucky at times foots the entire, Tire bill.

 

My point, the contingency program rewards only the pointy end of the field. The same group that feels they need to sticker up.

 

This plan would reduce costs at the lower end of the field also.

 

2 cents worth.

[Pat Mcg]

Damn Frank... you and I are on the same page!

[Ron Alan]

Help me out, within the SCCA what is a SM director?

Why do you insist on being a PITA?? You know what was meant and the difference between the 2 organizations...you dont need help! But a respectful response informs those who may not understand. 

 

Since there is not a specific SM director(series leader)in SCCA...as part of this process/discussion, who would oversee tire marking?

[Jim Drago]

another way to take a swing at that is to go to either a specific 200 TW tire or make it open to any 200TW tire. They are cheap and last a long time.

A few problems there..
First and foremost, The Hoosier contract has been extended, I think that has us on the tires until end of 23 season?

Second, 200tw is not a scientific number. It is a marketing tool and HUGE differences in 200 TW tires
Open would likely not work as we would pick the best.

Spec a 200TW tire, we would start shaving as they will be faster shaved.. So again back to square one?


I agree with you in principle.. We need harder longer lasting tire. I think we have two different subjects..

1) limit the number of tires
2) Push Hoosier to deliver a tire that has more raceable cycles

[FTodaro]

Damn Frank... you and I are on the same page!

If you look at the time of our posts, i did not see yours till after i hit send. but yes on the same page literately and figuratively