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It's time for Super Tours unleash the NB cars!

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#81
Jim Drago

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Craig, I do not have the numbers to compare restricted car to non restricted car, and I agree that I don not expect the cost increase to be very significant, but I do believe you will notice it. In terms of HP only, my understanding is that non restricted 99's will make around 13-15HP more and VVT's around 9-10HP more than there current restricted versions.

 

Trust me, I too like to go faster and for that I have now run my STL program for 3-1/2 years. On average I am going 5% faster in my STL car compared to my SM car in terms of lap times (4.5% for tracks with only one 5th gear straight and 5.5% faster for tracks with more than one 5th gear straight). For me this pleasure of running 5% faster has increased my costs by approx 2.5 times the cost of running SM. 

 

I guess the mathematicians and engineers can extrapolate from this curve, and figure out the cost increase. But I have never seen tires or brake pads last longer when accelerating faster or decelerating quicker. And I suspect engine costs will also go up as the rush to find the heads and headers and intake manifolds that flow better will require more time on the dyno.

 

And sorry about the "Claude" - too much wine at lunch for me! Was channeling my inner Inspector Clouseau!

 

I'm with Claude on this one..  :)

The only real opposition is the NA cars and the cost of flowing manifolds etc that I will be the first to admit I do not bother doing with the plates. I think the plates are keeping some builders close where is we opened it up, I think you would see a few builders clearly out perform the others. Further upsetting the apple cart. Could be done, but it make be some growing pains that we dont need.

Both VERY valid points, these points alone having me reconsidering

 

As far as your Stl comparison,  That is completely unrelated to that topic. Your Stl car is like most a ticking time bomb and wound to the edge.  Sm is basically a production car with no engine mods allowed.   Also, few throw new tires at a race to set track records in a race they will win by 2 minutes :)


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#82
Steve Scheifler

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Wating :bigsquaregrin:


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#83
gerglmuff2

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Craig, I do not have the numbers to compare restricted car to non restricted car, and I agree that I don not expect the cost increase to be very significant, but I do believe you will notice it. In terms of HP only, my understanding is that non restricted 99's will make around 13-15HP more and VVT's around 9-10HP more than there current restricted versions.

 

Trust me, I too like to go faster and for that I have now run my STL program for 3-1/2 years. On average I am going 5% faster in my STL car compared to my SM car in terms of lap times (4.5% for tracks with only one 5th gear straight and 5.5% faster for tracks with more than one 5th gear straight). For me this pleasure of running 5% faster has increased my costs by approx 2.5 times the cost of running SM. 

 

I guess the mathematicians and engineers can extrapolate from this curve, and figure out the cost increase. But I have never seen tires or brake pads last longer when accelerating faster or decelerating quicker. And I suspect engine costs will also go up as the rush to find the heads and headers and intake manifolds that flow better will require more time on the dyno.

 

And sorry about the "Claude" - too much wine at lunch for me! Was channeling my inner Inspector Clouseau!

 

thank you for these hard numbers. 

i knew STL was expensive, but wowsa!!!

ill stay in SM, and if SM drops NAs, i guess that puts me out. 


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#84
Danny Steyn

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thank you for these hard numbers. 

i knew STL was expensive, but wowsa!!!

ill stay in SM, and if SM drops NAs, i guess that puts me out. 

 

Only costs that much if you want to run at the front (and choose to do it with a Mazda - suspect doing it with a Honda might be slightly cheaper). You can run STL in the kill zone in your NA SM any day of the week, but as you are no doubt aware, mixed class racing comes with some caveats. 


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#85
Carl

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Cal,

 

Thanks for the response.  I especially liked the description of driving ability.  Everything but "sometimes front mid pack" fit me pretty well, especially "well maybe not mid pack".  It sounds like the laptime improvement is probably in the range of 1 sec for an "average" track.  That would be a little helpful in enduros, but doesn't seem worth spending a bunch of money to upgrade to NB.  I might be able to get that much improvement switching from my Rx7 to my SM-1.6.  I have been planning on doing a comparison between the two and will have to speed that process up.     

 

Cheers,

 

Carl 



#86
Brandon

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Last 5 MARRS rounds entry numbers for SSM/SM:

 

42 SSM, 19 SM - 7/27/19

47 SSM, 20 SM -  06/15/19

41 SSM, 27 SM - 04/06/19
37 SSM, 20 SM - 10/6/18

44 SSM, 17 SM - 09/01/18

They're smashing it.  If you build it, they will come.  It looks like the organizers were having conversations like this back in 2009 and they've obviously figured it out.  Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Regional :clap: classes :clap: only :clap: work :clap: for :clap: the :clap: region.

 

Sure "they're smashing it" but you're ignoring the significant back-end support that's required to make something like this work. With the first & second of those items being volunteers (rules admin & enforcement) and volunteers (dyno services).

 

The DCR has a huge racing foundation plus their own track which makes this class exemplary of a doing what the SCCA allows: a regional class that is successful.

Presuming the segmentation of SM will support the appearance of this class elsewhere is not a reasonable expectation.

Expanding this to a national level will immediately dilute what makes this work for DCR as the SCCA cannot and will not provide the back-end support necessary to ensure its ongoing success.

 

This is a dig against you Nathan but what you're writing has been repeated ad nauseam here on this forum since I arrived (2009) and only by those DCR members/competitors who have built (or bought) and race an SSM in the MARRS series.

 

Not for lack of trying the mantra of "say it enough times makes it true", SSM works solely and exclusively because it's a region-only class with the necessary support and experience from the local folks.


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#87
Nathan Pring

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Well yeah Brandon, that's the proposal raised by Jim that we're discussing....

 

2020 Supertours and runoffs should be

 

01-05 Miata  2350 std weight and 2365 over bore with no restricter plate

 

99-00 Miata 2325 std weight/2350 over bore with 47 mm plate ( or whatever determined to keep same parity to VVT we have now)

 

90--97 cars regional only.


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#88
racerbeav

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Denny is always the optimist :)

 

the class needs to focus and move forward. The NA cars statistically have not really taken advantage of what has been given or chose to remain in regional racing for the most part.  We dont have an issue where the entries are 50, 40 or even 30%, they are less than 10% 

 

I would not want to spend the money required to do a BOP on Na cars with NB cars at this level.  It would most definitely require slowing the NB cars, which is what we have now. Speeding the NA cars up to this level would be expensive and expensive to test .. It makes little sense.   makes more sense to leave as is than to bring NA cars to that level IMO 

 

More than likely the status quo group will shoot this way under the ground and will never be taken seriously, I know this. But IMO, this needs to happen. take all the shots you like at me, Just putting out something that I feel will help the class long term . Long after I am gone from the class. 

 

Guys, I'm a bit late to the conversation but this is one that I certainly need to be a part of. I've spent the past 10 years developing my 1.6 and have gotten it dialed-in to the point where it's competitive with almost any car in SM. A true no-excuses car - at least at the tracks I've run at. My recent race at Road Atlanta showed what it's capable of: https://youtu.be/tWeYwbasqys. Danny might chime in and attest to that. 

 

I run both Regionals and Majors/Super Tour races and have the Runoffs in my sights for next year and Indy in 2021. I've read through all the posts and I don't see the logic in eliminating the NA cars from the Majors/Super Tour events...? I'm probably missing something...

 

We tried SMSE for the 1.6 cars here in the southeast...I ran it the first couple of years but found myself mixing it up with the regular SM guys instead. I'd much rather be there running/competing with the race leaders...plus SMSE never had contingencies so I just couldn't get into it.

 

I'm a very happy NA driver. Knowing what I now know and witnessing what I have witnessed, I feel like the BOP between the NA (1.6) and the NBs is probably where it needs to be...I wouldn't have spent the countless $$$ developing my 1.6 if I did not believe in the NA platform. To push it aside because of ??? doesn't make sense.

 

Maybe I'm just being naive. I would like to hear more details and logic on why my car and I (and others like me, including the NA8) are undeserving to race at the Majors/Super Tour/Runoffs level...


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#89
LarryKing

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Old -timers like me will note that SSM rules are very similar to the original SM rules. When I started in 2002 the stock airbox and Mazdacomp exhaust were required, and the "doesn't say you can list" was much more similar to the showroom stock rules. I don't think rules-creep has benefitted SM.

 

I think the intent of Jim's original post was to promote future growth of SM. IMHO we should look to the past to study why the class growth exploded in 2003-2004 - because it was a (relatively) cheap, entry-level class. Raising the competition bar yet again will only continue to shrink class participation. A good first step would be a harder tire. Needing to spends thousands on an annual tire budget to be competitive excludes a lot of potential entries.


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#90
Jim Drago

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Old -timers like me will note that SSM rules are very similar to the original SM rules. When I started in 2002 the stock airbox and Mazdacomp exhaust were required, and the "doesn't say you can list" was much more similar to the showroom stock rules. I don't think rules-creep has benefitted SM.

 

I think the intent of Jim's original post was to promote future growth of SM. IMHO we should look to the past to study why the class growth exploded in 2003-2004 - because it was a (relatively) cheap, entry-level class. Raising the competition bar yet again will only continue to shrink class participation. A good first step would be a harder tire. Needing to spends thousands on an annual tire budget to be competitive excludes a lot of potential entries.

Holy cow, I agree with this :)  I don't see how to put the toothpaste back in tube to get costs down..  But tires are definitely a key place to start


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#91
Danny Steyn

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Holy cow, I agree with this :)  I don't see how to put the toothpaste back in tube to get costs down..  But tires are definitely a key place to start

Release the SM8, or go to something like the Toyo RR's - ran 12HC Toyos at NASA VIR this weekend. Same set all weekend, ran the same times in the last race on Sunday (12HC) as I did in the first session on Friday (5HC). That does not happen on the current SM7


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#92
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Guys, I'm a bit late to the conversation but this is one that I certainly need to be a part of. I've spent the past 10 years developing my 1.6 and have gotten it dialed-in to the point where it's competitive with almost any car in SM. A true no-excuses car - at least at the tracks I've run at. My recent race at Road Atlanta showed what it's capable of: https://youtu.be/tWeYwbasqys. Danny might chime in and attest to that. 

 

I run both Regionals and Majors/Super Tour races and have the Runoffs in my sights for next year and Indy in 2021. I've read through all the posts and I don't see the logic in eliminating the NA cars from the Majors/Super Tour events...? I'm probably missing something...

 

We tried SMSE for the 1.6 cars here in the southeast...I ran it the first couple of years but found myself mixing it up with the regular SM guys instead. I'd much rather be there running/competing with the race leaders...plus SMSE never had contingencies so I just couldn't get into it.

 

I'm a very happy NA driver. Knowing what I now know and witnessing what I have witnessed, I feel like the BOP between the NA (1.6) and the NBs is probably where it needs to be...I wouldn't have spent the countless $$$ developing my 1.6 if I did not believe in the NA platform. To push it aside because of ??? doesn't make sense.

 

Maybe I'm just being naive. I would like to hear more details and logic on why my car and I (and others like me, including the NA8) are undeserving to race at the Majors/Super Tour/Runoffs level...

 

Kevin, your NA 1.6 was significantly better than my NB 99 in the straights, and the data and video supports that. Would hate to see you be relegated to regionals only after all you have done to get it where it is


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#93
Jim Drago

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Release the SM8, or go to something like the Toyo RR's - ran 12HC Toyos at NASA VIR this weekend. Same set all weekend, ran the same times in the last race on Sunday (12HC) as I did in the first session on Friday (5HC). That does not happen on the current SM7

Considering you have heard like I have that the SM8 is not quite the upgrade we had hoped for,  is releasing it the right call?  SCCA under contract with Hoosier.. so Toyo isn't happening anytime soon 


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#94
gerglmuff2

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what have you herd about the SM8?


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#95
Jim Drago

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what have you herd about the SM8?

mixed results.. SMAC will recommend it when they feel it meets the needs or significant upgrade over what we have. They are working on it. We just need to let them handle it. It is in there best interest to fix this as well, but I think are been cautious with this rather than just dump a new tire on us, which I applaud.  Hopefully the tire limiting proposal will gain some traction and they will try to implement that, no idea there. That will help regardless of the tire. But we definitely need to address the tire situation, I dont think anyone denies that.  


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#96
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The Toyo has proven to benefit from shaving. So that would not put us further ahead than what we have now. If some how in the universe shaving didn’t exist it would make the problem much easier to solve. Same problem with 200TW tires. They get faster when shaved.


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#97
Danny Steyn

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Considering you have heard like I have that the SM8 is not quite the upgrade we had hoped for,  is releasing it the right call?  SCCA under contract with Hoosier.. so Toyo isn't happening anytime soon 

 

Actually had NOT heard that the SM8 was not an improvement on the SM7 in terms of wear


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#98
Brandon

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Well yeah Brandon, that's the proposal raised by Jim that we're discussing....

 

2020 Supertours and runoffs should be

 

01-05 Miata  2350 std weight and 2365 over bore with no restricter plate

 

99-00 Miata 2325 std weight/2350 over bore with 47 mm plate ( or whatever determined to keep same parity to VVT we have now)

 

90--97 cars regional only.

 

First, apologies for my mistyping: I was not taking a dig at you. My fingers didn't press enough of  the keys when my mind wanted them to.

 

Jim's proposal, to my mind, boils down to "I want to race faster".

 

And whether it's discussing Jim's or anything other suggestion, relegating NA models to "non-national status" does no one any favors other than further thin the potential field for entries. We (the SCCA overall) have large enough issue getting entries to events to propose and support winnowing allowed cars. If there's a desire to raise the performance envelop of the class overall, that will require more gears to turn, levers to flip to accomplish that.

 

I know it's always a deference to "cost containment/this is an entry-level class..." but providing an option for NA6 cars to be upgraded to NA8 and then expanding to allow NB1 engines in the NA would enable what Jim is proposing. Policing/rules enforcement of such a process is what the SMAC is for. We write letters, the SMAC reviews them, and decides whether to forward them to the CRB or not.


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#99
Nathan Pring

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No worries Brandon

This is only my first year in spec miata so my experience is limited I know. I've been through a similar situation before though racing fvee in Australia where they ran 1200 and 1600 spec where they weren't trying to achieve parity, so it was a surprise to me seeing the NA and NB trying to stay level with each other by restricting the NB. I picked SMSE as I looked through previous seasons results and it was littered with NBs and very little 1.6s compared, so I thought well at least this would put me on a level playing field. The only issue is the last few races I've only had 2-3 competitors. Call it a gut reaction but I feel like many people might staying away because of the sheer number of NBs and going to other events like SVRA. I use the example of SSM in WDRC because it seems like they created a home for 1.6s, I considered it myself but went down the path of buying a 99 instead. Even if I had the option of putting a 1.8 in, I'd still go with the 99 as I'd be spending the same money as I would getting a 99 motor.
Have a good labor day weekend!

2019 SeDIV SMSE Champion


#100
racerbeav

racerbeav

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  • Location:Acworth, GA
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  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:77

I get the whole "I want to race faster" thing. I just haven't seen any compelling evidence as to why the NAs should be relegated to regionals only. As @Brandon mentioned, there's enough of a challenge getting entries into the class. I'm guessing the development of Spec MX-5 isn't going to help that either.

 

I'm cool with allowing for bigger and better mods and faster racing. Let's keep the parity across platforms (NA - NB) going. 

 

If there is a concern whether the 1.6s and NA8s are competitive enough or should otherwise compete at the Majors/Super Tours/Runoffs, then that should be for those of us who run them to decide.


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Kevin Beaver

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