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#21
Steve Scheifler

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Either he is not bright or just a dick. Last time I checked, machinery lasts longer when proper inspections and Preventative Maintenance (PM) is performed.


So the mere act of inspection makes machinery last longer? Good to know Schrodinger. BTW, how’s the cat?

Lighten up.
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#22
av8tor

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So the mere act of inspection makes machinery last longer? Good to know Schrodinger. BTW, how’s the cat?

Lighten up.

 

Again with the Being a Dick act. I clearly stated that inspections and Preventative Maintenance are part of a prudent program. If you believe otherwise, good for you. I don't have a cat?



#23
Steve Scheifler

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Again with the Being a Dick act. I clearly stated that inspections and Preventative Maintenance are part of a prudent program. If you believe otherwise, good for you. I don't have a cat?


Lighten up was meant to be the real message, the rest was an apparently poor attempt to do just exactly that.

I was previously accused of being obtuse when the more appropriate term would have been ironic aka sarcastic. By comparison, my response to your humorless post WAS an example of being (intentionally) obtuse (missing the obvious meaning/intent). A second unsuccessful attempt at humor.

As an engineer I expected at least a slight grin from you on the Schrodinger/cat crack. Quantum physics, does the mere action of observation (checking if the cat is alive) alter the reality, or does it’s state really exist until you check? Hence my intentionally obtuse focus on the “inspection” part of your statement rather than the “maintenance” part as intended. Apparently also not as clever as I’d hoped. Or, you are just ridiculously sensitive at the moment.

BTW, in the real world there is such a thing as a point of diminishing returns, like changing engine oil every weekend (with no factual evidence of need), or over tracking how many minutes of service are on something for which you have no basis of determining expected service life (except to eventually determine such), or the number of posts trying to make a point even if only a humorous one. See, there I go again, yet another failed attempt at humor.

Lighten up Schrodinger.
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#24
av8tor

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You and I need to continue this conversation at the bar. Maybe we can get Tom Hampton to join us. Sorry, that line of humor was so far removed from what I expected from this group that it never crossed my mind. Pretty good in that context.


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#25
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I'm all for Biran's cat :bigsquaregrin:


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#26
Tom Hampton

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Lighten up was meant to be the real message, the rest was an apparently poor attempt to do just exactly that.

I was previously accused of being obtuse when the more appropriate term would have been ironic aka sarcastic.


It wasn't an accusation. It was, likewise, a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment. Thus the "smiley" on the end of the accusation. The line between intentionally ironic, sarcastic, and deliberately obtuse is subtle to non-existent. I chose not to belabor the point, becuase I was only ever being a smart-ass myself.  I could, just as easily, have replaced my dictionary insertion with "lighten up, Francis!"


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#27
Tom Hampton

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You and I need to continue this conversation at the bar. Maybe we can get Tom Hampton to join us. Sorry, that line of humor was so far removed from what I expected from this group that it never crossed my mind. Pretty good in that context.


I'd probably rather have a different conversation at that bar. I try not to debate nerdy shit while drinking. Nothing about this sounds like good bar fodder: obscure vocabulary, hour meter tracking of racecar parts, and quantum physics? Nope that's forum talk. Bars are for much less politically correct conversation.

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#28
Steve Scheifler

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It wasn't an accusation. It was, likewise, a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment. Thus the "smiley" on the end of the accusation. The line between intentionally ironic, sarcastic, and deliberately obtuse is subtle to non-existent. I chose not to belabor the point, becuase I was only ever being a smart-ass myself. I could, just as easily, have replaced my dictionary insertion with "lighten up, Francis!"


I know, I hoped it was clear that I was just playing along, though I’ve tired of always ending with a smiley of the somewhat demented looking wink emoji. I may need to re-evaluate. Maybe if I could get closer to racing than this quiet forum...
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#29
Steve Scheifler

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You and I need to continue this conversation at the bar. Maybe we can get Tom Hampton to join us. Sorry, that line of humor was so far removed from what I expected from this group that it never crossed my mind. Pretty good in that context.


Yeah, I generally shun lame humor that interrupts the flow of a good discussion, I’m probably just bored.
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#30
Ron Alan

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I feel smarter when I read what SS writes...whether I have a clue is a secret I keep to myself :)

 

I have an hour meter that has never failed me...tow truck and strap in front of my car indicates the engine has reached its life expectancy!


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#31
Tom Sager

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I feel smarter when I read what SS writes...whether I have a clue is a secret I keep to myself :)

 

I have an hour meter that has never failed me...tow truck and strap in front of my car indicates the engine has reached its life expectancy!

True.

 

I find myself somewhere in between the 2 of you.  (Number of events x average track time per event) + dyno or other relevant time = cumulative time.  That and a couple leak downs per year.  Oh and a metallic mosaic on the surface of drained engine oil negates all that. 


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#32
Steve Scheifler

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Keeping the topic alive by dredging up a typical internet topic (no, not “best” oil or oil change frequency as such, or even special tools for opening used filters, but rather oil breakdown analysis.) Anyone willing to share oil analysis results and details? Particularly those of you tracking actual minutes of use.
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#33
MPR22

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This thread is indicative of what I think is wrong with a lot of race car drivers.  

 

Too much mental masterbation about irrelevant details. 

 

I talk to drivers at lots of tracks that are constantly trying to justify their poor driving with nit-picky details on their cars.  Most them can't exit the track and tell me or their crew what the car is doing. A lot of that is because they are not capable of driving the car 8/10 much less 10/10.  Set up is not wizardry on these car, nor is care and maintenance, but we get a lot of smart people that think they can out think these things or out think the last group of smart people.  There are about 5 guys in the country that have most if not all of the answers on how to make these cars go fast.  If you aren't talking to them you are just reinventing the wheel, which is great if that is what you are into.  I am into winning and driving fast.  I get in the car, make it do what I want, get out of the car and tell the crew what I need it to do and we decide on whats the best way to accomplish that.  Usually consists of small cross changes, .2 here or .2 there.   

The engines will last as long as they will last.  Same with the transmissions and other moving parts.  They last a lot less time with beginners than they do with experienced good drivers.  All the  engine timers in the world won't tell you when to change the fluid to fix money shifts and twisted shafts on transmissions from downshifting and letting out the clutch.  

 

Just drive.  Change the fluids on some reasonable schedule and enjoy the company of others at the track.  I see people come back from each session working on cars.  That should have been done at the shop and most of the rest of it can be done in a few minutes if the car was taken care of at home.  

 

But what do I know, sometimes I am obtuse. 


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#34
Steve Scheifler

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Mr Ross, generally agreed. FWIW, my question about oil analysis is along the same lines from the other end. I still find that many people tend to change oil based on fear and unsupported myth and marketing so I’m curious to hear from someone who’s taken the time lately to collect actual facts. Enduro guys in particular rack up the miles quickly.
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#35
Brandon

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Mr Ross, generally agreed. FWIW, my question about oil analysis is along the same lines from the other end. I still find that many people tend to change oil based on fear and unsupported myth and marketing so I’m curious to hear from someone who’s taken the time lately to collect actual facts. Enduro guys in particular rack up the miles quickly.

 

I've got 2.5 seasons of used oil analysis (UOA) for a "built" NA8 engine, approximately 60 hours if I remember correctly. Followed the brand/type/oil change interval (OCI) recommendations from my engine builder and outside of some potential fuel contamination from a leaky injector (which was corrected), the Blackstone reports were good from an overall perspective.

 

The oil specs were as follows:
3q 0W-40 Mobil-1 (European spec oil)

1q 15W-40 DelVac (Mobil-1 diesel oil)

NAPA bulk silver oil filter

 

Changed after every weekend.

 

Anyone want the UOA reports, PM me an e-mail address and I'll send them out but they're not particularly enlightening other than capturing trends and verifying suitability of the OCI and for heading off any potential issues which can't be seen.


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#36
Steve Scheifler

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That’s great Brandon, thanks. But how many hours or miles on a typical weekend? The reports include the “health” of the oil as well as indicators of possible issues with the engine. Was there anything on the health of the oil after one weekend to necessitate a change? The simplest metric is typically viscosity. Have you had a fresh sample of your particular 3:1 concoction (I like that BTW) analyzed to establish a baseline?
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#37
Brandon

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That’s great Brandon, thanks. But how many hours or miles on a typical weekend? The reports include the “health” of the oil as well as indicators of possible issues with the engine. Was there anything on the health of the oil after one weekend to necessitate a change? The simplest metric is typically viscosity. Have you had a fresh sample of your particular 3:1 concoction (I like that BTW) analyzed to establish a baseline?

 

I'd say anywhere between 6-9 hours dependent upon test day and double-dipping. The series I ran specifically during that time was a 30m qualifying and 45m race so that combined with a standard SM group entry and the test day got me to the greater number of hours.

 

I did have a TBN analysis done to provide a comparison, I'll see if I can dig it up if you're interested.

 

Regarding the interval itself, I'm sure there were hours left on the table but this was an experienced race engine builder (decades of various race builds - Nissan, Honda, Mazda) and had his own historical data to support his "program". You are implying correctly that I did not attempt a "2 weekend" interval, in an effort to validate the expertise, but that's why I used him: if I'm paying money for his knowledge, why would I second guess him on a simple maintenance item that costs me $18 and 30 minutes after the weekend?

 

I've only known of one engine he's built & installed that's failed mechanically** and that was due to the driver not recognizing when your water temp/pressure gauge is accurately showing you have no coolant. That driver's engine failed on the 2nd to last lap of a 20 minute race. My engine ended up going into another competitor here in the NE and it's being ran on a regular basis with multiple clubs up here.

 

Oh, and he's never had an engine fail tech inspection and he's had plenty torn down in the past 10 years.

 

** I am qualifying it because he used to do build & ship but his last experience selling to someone (where he didn't perform the install) who didn't follow his instructions (for either break-in or maintenance) called after a couple of weekends asking for some money back due to lack of power or mechanical failure.


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#38
av8tor

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I've got 2.5 seasons of used oil analysis (UOA) for a "built" NA8 engine, approximately 60 hours if I remember correctly. Followed the brand/type/oil change interval (OCI) recommendations from my engine builder and outside of some potential fuel contamination from a leaky injector (which was corrected), the Blackstone reports were good from an overall perspective.

 

The oil specs were as follows:
3q 0W-40 Mobil-1 (European spec oil)

1q 15W-40 DelVac (Mobil-1 diesel oil)

NAPA bulk silver oil filter

 

Changed after every weekend.

 

Anyone want the UOA reports, PM me an e-mail address and I'll send them out but they're not particularly enlightening other than capturing trends and verifying suitability of the OCI and for heading off any potential issues which can't be seen.

 

That is a very frequent oil change interval. Lots of great info on the Joe Gibbs racing Driven Oil website. The big boys change their filters quite often, but not their oil. All those oil $s could be spent at the bar.

 



#39
Steve Scheifler

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A guy I know and trust told me to wear shark repellent whenever I swim at Lake of the Ozarks; hasn’t failed me yet! :)

I doubt you can find anyone racing an SM who has ever had an engine failure attributable to insufficient oil change frequency, so that’s not really supportive. Wear rates indicated by the oil analysis on the other hand could suggest whether or not it’s changed too infrequently.

I’ve mentioned it before and haven’t been able to find it lately, but one Ford study on the subject showed that their oil (of that time) actually produced higher wear when fresh than it did after a period of time. I don’t recall the interval (500 miles sticks in my mind) and of course oils have continued to evolve, but I still like to mention it in these discussions because it demonstrates the potential flaw in the old “better safe than sorry” cliche.

av8or, fix your post/quote.
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#40
MPR22

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Mr Ross, generally agreed. FWIW, my question about oil analysis is along the same lines from the other end. I still find that many people tend to change oil based on fear and unsupported myth and marketing so I’m curious to hear from someone who’s taken the time lately to collect actual facts. Enduro guys in particular rack up the miles quickly.


I too would like to see what the oil looks like after a good 8 hour enduro.
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