74 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

Jim said they would be equivalent in cost *to him* because he starts with 2/32" shaves. Do you? Are you buying a set of tires per weekend or every other weekend?

PS - for a tire that (reportedly) heat cycles out faster than it wears out, this also makes it more difficult/expensive to drive the car to and from the races. While we don't have many of these guys in the field, we should consider that we are in a budget class and are trying to encourage participation. Today's budget racer is next-seasons regular is the following season's regional champion.

I knew what Jim wrote...glad he straightened you out

We just paid $826 for shaved Toyo's mounted and balanced. Hoosiers will be approx. $794.

Guys like me(no experience with Hoosiers) have to rely on guys like Jim Drago to assess tire life/comparison between the 2. If he says for the average guy(75% of regional racer)the life span will be roughly the same for a shaved RA1 and a Hoosier...I have to go with this(plus I've read more similar comments than dissimilar). The majority of the class will run either tire until it cords...getting the most out of them. The guys in the arms race are going to do what gets them wins...these are not budget racers.

Last time we drove the car to the track it was on street tires...with 3 race tires in front and 1 in the trunk. I don't see this being part of, or a valid reason for not being able to switch from a DOT tire to a R compound tire!

Sorry, just not seeing the $$$ argument. I do see the Rain tire issue, and the Aim Tire issue. But for both of these I see work arounds. Allowing RA1's as a legal rain tire is a no brainer...maybe 1 or 2 years. Allow for a crossover period for drys of at least 3 race weekends. Aim sells Hoosiers and I'm sure would lose no loyal customers. But my guess is this goes far deeper with info I as an outsider know nothing about. Will plead ignorance on this one.

As far as I can tell nationwide, SFR has the largest SM class based on entries...45-50 average car count per race. If we aren't we have to be top 3. You don't think Hoosier is willing to pony up "Hoosier Bucks' if thats the only reason they get or don't get their tire speced in our region?

For me this is the bottom line. If SFR was an "open" tire region, how many guys would be running DOT tires over R compound tires?? Though more often than not they are still refered to as "Chick cars", they are still fun little RACE cars. Lets drive them with RACE tires BTW...this is coming from a cheap budget racer family!!!

Maybe a written survey(with vote) to every entry at Infineon in a week?? Happy to follow the majority whichever way it may go.

[NV Racer]

Brian,
Like Jim I stopped buying 4/32" Toyos. They cycled out before they corded. I get about 12 cycles on the Toyos before they cord and from what I read Hoosiers should be about the same before they cycle out. I like a molded tire and the Surveys sent out early this year seemed to match that opinion. Those that ran hankook Ventus Z214 in ITA say that they are good for 12 cycles also. The budget drivers will still be able to run the Hoosiers past their prime as they do with 4/32" Toyos now. Cycled out only really applies to the pointy end of the field anyways.

Dennis

[Johnny D]

FYI, I wouldn't miss or be late to the SM drivers meeting at Infineon.
Yes we will.
J~

[dp35]

I don’t have a strong opinion on this yet, but here are a few other things to consider:
 
- Using Hoosiers for SMT would save money for people that race IT classes on other tires, because they could use the same tires for both.  This might also increase SMT racer’s participation in IT classes.
- If we use Hoosiers in SMT - the fastest racers from our region would be better prepared & competitive at the runoffs.  IMO this should be important to our regional board.  We all benefit & take pride when one of our racers wins the runoffs (no pressure Brian, but we’re all counting on you!).
- Hoosier paid contingency in NASA’s PTE class last year - 2 tires for winner, 1 for 2nd place.  I don’t know if they’re offering the same this year, but I know Doug Clark won a lot of free Hoosiers last year.  Seems like if they’re willing to do this for a small open tire class, that they’d be willing to do at least as much for a large exclusive tire class – but I could be wrong. 
- Most of the fastest racers are not going to reveal their process of shaving & heat cycling RA-1’s to optimum performance, but I believe it involves use of the most expensive shaving machine of all – the car.  If the Hoosiers don’t require this (mount ‘em up & go fast), they might be cheaper in a way that’s impossible to quantify. 
- Once optimized, it’s been my experience that RA-1’s have a pretty short window of peak performance.  If you want to win, this is the tire you need.  If you’re content with running mid pack, you can get by with sub-optimum RA-1’s, which have a much larger window.  If you don’t mind running at or near the back, you can probably race an entire season on 1 or 2 sets of RA-1’s.
- Is there any possibility of allowing both RA-1’s and SM6’s?  (not an open tire class, but limited to just these 2 choices)  Advantages:
- Racer’s current inventory of full tread RA-1’s could still be used in the rain.
- Budget racers that are more concerned with using up the tires they already have than winning right now could use up their RA-1’s.
- Budget racers could score deals on used RA-1’s from front runners & national racers (Brian).  Some of these might be the fastest RA-1’s they’ve ever had.
- Anyone that wants to drive their race car to/from the track on their race tires could still do it, on RA-1’s.

[Ron Alan]

Some great points Darin. Many things for the SFR to consider.

Looks like our northern buddies may be leaning toward the Hoosier with some form of allowed use of the RA1 for what it's worth.

[Alberto]

I don’t have a strong opinion on this yet, but here are a few other things to consider:
 
- Using Hoosiers for SMT would save money for people that race IT classes on other tires, because they could use the same tires for both.  This might also increase SMT racer’s participation in IT classes.
- If we use Hoosiers in SMT - the fastest racers from our region would be better prepared & competitive at the runoffs.  IMO this should be important to our regional board.  We all benefit & take pride when one of our racers wins the runoffs (no pressure Brian, but we’re all counting on you!).

I kinda do have a strong opinion since its my money that I'm spending. Sorry if I come off as overbearing to some of you guys on this discussion.

How many drivers does that list include? There were 42 entrants at the last SM race at Thill. I doubt more than 10% or 4 drivers are considering going to the runoffs.
When I run ITA, I run my Toyo RA1s and its all good.
Some guys I know run the Hankooks and complain about lack of feedback at the limit.

- Hoosier paid contingency in NASA’s PTE class last year - 2 tires for winner, 1 for 2nd place.  I don’t know if they’re offering the same this year, but I know Doug Clark won a lot of free Hoosiers last year.  Seems like if they’re willing to do this for a small open tire class, that they’d be willing to do at least as much for a large exclusive tire class – but I could be wrong. 

- Most of the fastest racers are not going to reveal their process of shaving & heat cycling RA-1’s to optimum performance, but I believe it involves use of the most expensive shaving machine of all – the car.  If the Hoosiers don’t require this (mount ‘em up & go fast), they might be cheaper in a way that’s impossible to quantify. 

Again, how many of the 42 racers does this really apply to?


While I respect your points and those raised by Ron, very few of them apply to me or some of the people around me at the rear of the track. Durability, driveability/communication at the limit and cost are more important to me (a regional only racer) than what happens for big budget guys running Nationals. I can see the point for guys like Charlie and Kyle and maybe others that are young enough for racing to play a different role in their lives than a 40 year old dude.

As Jim mentioned, the lack of real data makes me favor the devil I know than the devil I don't (Hoosiers).

[Brian Ghidinelli]

- If we use Hoosiers in SMT - the fastest racers from our region would be better prepared & competitive at the runoffs. IMO this should be important to our regional board. We all benefit & take pride when one of our racers wins the runoffs (no pressure Brian, but we’re all counting on you!).
...

- Is there any possibility of allowing both RA-1’s and SM6’s? (not an open tire class, but limited to just these 2 choices) Advantages:

Thanks for the vote of confidence/pressure! But by the numbers, National racing is not important to our racers. It's obviously important to me but I believe I'm the only SM driver going to the Runoffs from the west coast last time I looked at the entry list and I'm the first person to go from SFR since 2009 when Rampelberg ran?? We have an established culture for, whatever reason, of National racing not being as popular here as in other parts of the country.

As for allowing both tires... it sounds like it will make the Toyo driver completely noncompetitive and that is a hallmark of our class. If we went with the Hoosier, grandfathering in the Toyo for a few races makes sense, but I don't like the idea of a spec class having multiple tires, especially with considerably different characteristics. Just my two cents speaking as a driver.

Darin, I'd appreciate if you'd send your feedback to the board ahead of our meeting tonight. Thanks!

[Johnny D]

I'm sure Brian's already doing the combo but lets list some.

Stay with RA1's
The guys that want Hoosiers will still run with us.
Alberto and company will be happy.
NASA crossover guys will race with us.

Go to Hoosiers.
Hoosiers guys are happy. All set for National if they want.
They can run ITA/ITS without tire changes
Alberto?? go to NASA and stay or just until he needs new tires and then he gets Hoosiers
Only run ITA.
Or just complain and then go buy a set.
NASA guys? Will they run but only ITA/S or not at all.
Complain but get a set.
Look for somebody that rents a set for the weekend?

Run RA1's a few races and cross.
Run both tires.

Tough call.
J~

[CARacer]

Thanks for the vote of confidence/pressure! But by the numbers, National racing is not important to our racers. It's obviously important to me but I believe I'm the only SM driver going to the Runoffs from the west coast last time I looked at the entry list and I'm the first person to go from SFR since 2009 when Rampelberg ran?? We have an established culture for, whatever reason, of National racing not being as popular here as in other parts of the country.

The way I read that is that the national tire rule is basically irrelevant to SFR and is not even a reason why we should be prompted to think about changing our tire rules. Why would we think about changing our tire rules?
1. If it would lead to lower costs and/or simpler logistics for the racer.
2. If it would lead to bigger grids/more participation.
3. If it would lead to fairer competition.
(The latter two are just effects of the first, it seems to me).

I haven't seen any convincing arguments that changing the tire rule will achieve any of those, and plenty of arguments that it could do the opposite, so, uhh, I'm wondering why we're even having this discussion. :-)

[Jim Boemler]

Isn't the RA1 going out of production next year? That means that even if you don't accept the Hoosier, you've gotta accept something new. I think SOME change is mandatory.

[Johnny D]

Isn't the RA1 going out of production next year? That means that even if you don't accept the Hoosier, you've gotta accept something new. I think SOME change is mandatory.

I had it confirmed yesterday that the Toyo RA1 will remain as NASAs SM spec tire for 2012

http://mazdaracers.c...t=0

J~

[Jim Boemler]

So it's NOT true that they're going out of production?

[Johnny D]

Only if they glow in the dark from Radiation or just can't produce.
(Japan earthquake, etc.)
J~

[Jim Boemler]

OK, sorry if I misunderstood.

[NV Racer]

The reality of the situation is by staying with RA-1's for 2012 we are just kicking the can down the road. All the issues brought up so far will be present at the end of next year. RA-1's will not be around after 2012.

So what is gained by keeping the RA-1's knowing we will need to change in 2013? The issues will be the same. What is lost is a year of development. We may pick up not lose more Nasa guys by going to SM6's. They may want to get a jump on competition if Nasa goes SM6 in 2013. We will have 3 years with the same tire and a guaranty that the tire will be available. Costs for the budget racers can be dealt with by allowing a transistion period. The decision is change this year or next. The RA-1's will be gone in 2013.

Dennis

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Dennis - where are you getting your information that RA1s will not be available after 2012?

[NV Racer]

Dennis - where are you getting your information that RA1s will not be available after 2012?

No direct inside knowledge just common sense. Toyo tried to kill the RA-1 once before. Now with only Nasa using it. It makes the decision to kill it even easier. Once the contract with NASA expires TOYO has no more obligations to keep making them. With the SM6 there is a 3 year guaranty. Are you willing to gamble or do you want long term stability.

Dennis

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Dennis - thanks. Just wanting to separate the facts from speculation (not that speculation is bad). But, if we're talking about stability... how long have we been using the Toyos?

I'm at the board meeting now; our official "position" is we will hold a Group 7 meeting at Infineon next weekend to get a larger cross section of input from our racers and then we'll make the call based on the feedback and facts. We're listening hard so we hope this works!

If you love or hate Hoosiers, you better register for the race next weekend!!

https://www.motorspo...DB43AE496CF1724 (late fee after Aug 29th!)

[NV Racer]

Dennis - thanks. Just wanting to separate the facts from speculation (not that speculation is bad). But, if we're talking about stability... how long have we been using the Toyos?

https://www.motorspo...DB43AE496CF1724 (late fee after Aug 29th!)

Has Toyo said that they will continue to supply RA-1's past the 2012 season? No
Will Hoosier supply SM6 Through 2014? Yes


I do not care if we race on RA-1's or SM6's. I just want a logical thoughtful decision. With no prejudices or deal making involved. But the fact is SM6's are guaranteed to be available thru 2014. We have no such guaranty that RA-1's will. In Addition what we ran in the past is irrelevant. It’s about what will be available in the future. I know change is hard for some but it is not always bad.

Dennis

[dp35]

Thanks for the vote of confidence/pressure! But by the numbers, National racing is not important to our racers. It's obviously important to me but I believe I'm the only SM driver going to the Runoffs from the west coast last time I looked at the entry list and I'm the first person to go from SFR since 2009 when Rampelberg ran?? We have an established culture for, whatever reason, of National racing not being as popular here as in other parts of the country.

As for allowing both tires... it sounds like it will make the Toyo driver completely noncompetitive and that is a hallmark of our class. If we went with the Hoosier, grandfathering in the Toyo for a few races makes sense, but I don't like the idea of a spec class having multiple tires, especially with considerably different characteristics. Just my two cents speaking as a driver.

Darin, I'd appreciate if you'd send your feedback to the board ahead of our meeting tonight. Thanks!

I meant to email, but couldn't find the board email (no time to reply with a real computer, just a phone).

About national racers from our region - I meant that we all get our status upgraded & gain bragging rights if one of our racers wins the runoffs. It improves the reputation & respect for the region, & makes us all look better. I've seen this in other forms of racing, and it's real. Hard to prove & impossible to quantify, but real nonetheless. Rampelberg's championship influenced me to join this class.

Another thing about national racers - if we use a different tire, the number of our regional competitors racing the runoffs will likely decline to zero.

About allowing both tires - I should've pointed out that I was suggesting that this be for an extended transition period. Not just a few races, but a year or two. This would allow all of the RA-1's to get used up, with everyone buying SM6's as they need tires.

Racers who drive the car to/from races, or make 1 or 2 sets last all year, are often amongst those that are 10+ seconds off the pace. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't believe the deficit is 100% attributed to tires. Therefore, I don't think things would be all that different if some of the slower car's were on RA-1's vs the rest on SM6's.

You guys have a tough decision to make. Thanks for volunteering.