74 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

When we first started, I picked up 3 sets of Hoosiers from a local SM racer who had moved on to MX5 cup. They were used, maybe one race weekend but older. 9 months ago I sold our HPDE car to a local guy with a set of TD wheels with the used SM Hoosiers. For reference he had and has been running NASA group 4(fastest group before TT?). I contacted him the other day to see if he was interested in anymore take offs for cheap and he said "perfect timing", I just corded the Hoosiers after 10 days! That's at least 40-50 heat cycles(plus what they had already been run)!! Granted he's not racing but at Infineon he's running 2:05 which isn't bad for a street car with a roll bar, open diff and stock cat/exhaust! My point is he was scrubbing the tires fairly hard.

This is my only 2nd hand experience with Hoosiers for what its worth...but thought this was pretty decent life!

Every time I see a reference to our region not being very interested in Nationals it makes me want to pull my hair out(whats left ). I can name 20 racers right know from the West coast that would be first to sign up if the Nationals came to our side of the country. Budget racing and participation(or lack of) are understandable reasons to discuss a regional tire change. But to use lack of participation at the National level because no one can afford or wants to travel across the country is a ludicrous argument...IMO

Has SFR ever not followed a National rule change?

[Jim Boemler]

Every time I see a reference to our region not being very interested in Nationals it makes me want to pull my hair out(whats left ). I can name 20 racers right know from the West coast that would be first to sign up if the Nationals came to our side of the country. Budget racing and participation(or lack of) are understandable reasons to discuss a regional tire change. But to use lack of participation at the National level because no one can afford or wants to travel across the country is a ludicrous argument...IMO

What you've got is a concrete reason for the West to push hard for the next Runoffs venue to be out west. It's a tangent from the tire argument, but some Nationals excitement would be a tremendous boost for left-coast racing, and we could sure use it. The East and Mid-West have gotten the benefit for many years, and it's time to share.

[Juan Pineda]

Lots of good views here. My input:

Allow both Hoosier and RA1 for regional competition in 2012.

My observations:

1) RA1's are competitive only for a small window, I think 5-8 sessions after wearing them down to <2/32".

2) RA1's need to be shaved to 2/32" to get competitive tires without wasting scrubbing sessions.

3) The cost of wearing down RA1's during testing far exceeds any other cost difference. Darin hit a bulls eye -- scrubbing is the most expensive shaving machine of all.

4) Shaving gives inconsistent quality!!! Plus it adds cost.

Bottom line is for those that want competitive tires, RA1's are expensive. Give them Hoosiers, that's what they want.

I see no reason to prohibit RA1's if we allow Hoosiers. Let those that want to run RA1's do so for the full year.

-Juan

[Alberto]

Racers who drive the car to/from races, or make 1 or 2 sets last all year, are often amongst those that are 10+ seconds off the pace. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't believe the deficit is 100% attributed to tires. Therefore, I don't think things would be all that different if some of the slower car's were on RA-1's vs the rest on SM6's.

You guys have a tough decision to make. Thanks for volunteering.

Don't mean to nitpick but accuracy is paramount in my job and I can't help but carry that into parts of my personal life and comment on your comment.

Not necessarily 10+ seconds off pace.

I'm 6 seconds off of P1 8 races into my rookie season on the same set of RA1s that I've been using since Jan. I started these tires at 6/32nds. The vast majority of other rookies from 2011 class that have been regularly participating in this seasons races are up to 9 seconds off P1. So under your 10+ second claim. In the last race, there were only 2 rookies that were 10+ seconds off pace and they hadn't raced since driver's school.

Results here if anyone cares to review:
http://www.mylaps.co....jsp?id=1995002


I am a rookie and prior to this year haven't raced anything since 10 years ago when I used to race karts so I'm certainly no expert on SM and tires. I don't really care what tire is spec'ed so long as I'm not forced to buy a set every 2-4 weekends b/c they no longer had any grip due to heat cycles or they are a pita to drive on b/c they lack communication. We had to replace slicks every 2 weekends when I raced karts but they were $35 a tire so it really didn't matter. With shaved Toyos, I can shave them to whatever level of competitiveness I wish to have at a rate that fits my budget.

[dmathias]

the number of our regional competitors racing the runoffs will likely decline to zero.

Picking nits - but there are zero regional competitors in the Runoffs from all divisions. You must race national events to qualify so by definition only national competitors are at the Runoffs.

[NV Racer]

I am a rookie and prior to this year haven't raced anything since 10 years ago when I used to race karts so I'm certainly no expert on SM and tires. I don't really care what tire is spec'ed so long as I'm not forced to buy a set every 2-4 weekends b/c they no longer had any grip due to heat cycles or they are a pita to drive on b/c they lack communication. We had to replace slicks every 2 weekends when I raced karts but they were $35 a tire so it really didn't matter. With shaved Toyos, I can shave them to whatever level of competitiveness I wish to have at a rate that fits my budget.

Alberto,

When you hear someone say their tires have lost their grip and are cycled out. They are talking about losing .5 to .75 seconds a lap. Those racers are in the top 5% of the field. As Juan said earlier RA-1's have a short window of max grip. Only the top end of the field will notice that drop because of their consistency. They are the ones selling off their tires to the budget racers or using them as practice tires. The SM6 will not lose grip to the point that you will have to change tires every 2-3 weekends. Your current tires would be considered rocks by the top of the field. Personally I do not have the consistency to worry about heat cycles and I am within 2 seconds of the top. The advantage with the Hoosier we are good until 2014. RA-1 may not be back after 2012.

Dennis

[Johnny D]

Dennis, IMO, you keep speaking about tires, "Toyos MAY not be back"

Are you thinking of the big picture here?

We could (about as good as may) loose more driver than keep/hold or gain because NASA has the TOYO contract.

So is it better to switch just because Hoosiers will be there? I'm not sure, seems like a safety blacket if Toyo can't come though. You may loose time coming up to speed... well wouldn't everyone else? And anybody is free to do track day or ITA to get a jump, if they want.

I just don't see switching this year healthy for SCCA.
NASA changes to Hoosiers in 2013, you got my vote.
If they change to something else or stay with Toyo will have to deal with all over again.
J~

[Charlie Hayes]

I have heard some good things for Toyo and it's not a RA1 or 888. Hoosiers could easily tighten up the class if the tire management is not as extensive as the RA1 calls for. Im in for it either way, but it will be tough running both clubs with two different tires. May have take sides....

[dp35]

Don't mean to nitpick but accuracy is paramount in my job and I can't help but carry that into parts of my personal life and comment on your comment.

Not necessarily 10+ seconds off pace.

I'm 6 seconds off of P1 8 races into my rookie season on the same set of RA1s that I've been using since Jan. I started these tires at 6/32nds. The vast majority of other rookies from 2011 class that have been regularly participating in this seasons races are up to 9 seconds off P1. So under your 10+ second claim. In the last race, there were only 2 rookies that were 10+ seconds off pace and they hadn't raced since driver's school.

Results here if anyone cares to review:
http://www.mylaps.co....jsp?id=1995002


I am a rookie and prior to this year haven't raced anything since 10 years ago when I used to race karts so I'm certainly no expert on SM and tires. I don't really care what tire is spec'ed so long as I'm not forced to buy a set every 2-4 weekends b/c they no longer had any grip due to heat cycles or they are a pita to drive on b/c they lack communication. We had to replace slicks every 2 weekends when I raced karts but they were $35 a tire so it really didn't matter. With shaved Toyos, I can shave them to whatever level of competitiveness I wish to have at a rate that fits my budget.

Not sure what I wrote that made you feel that I was singling you out, or talking about rookies. It is common to have cars in our class that are 10+ seconds/lap slower than the leaders, & many of them are not rookies or named Alberto.

[Alberto]

Not sure what I wrote that made you feel that I was singling you out, or talking about rookies. It is common to have cars in our class that are 10+ seconds/lap slower than the leaders, & many of them are not rookies or named Alberto.

I didn't think you were singling me out. I was commenting on your 10 second comment since I was reviewing comparative lap times over the weekend and trying to figure out my personal progress. It was a kinda of a tongue in cheek remark that apparently didn't come through that way over the interwebz. Sorry.

[Johnny D]

I didn't think you were singling me out. I was commenting on your 10 second comment since I was reviewing comparative lap times over the weekend and trying to figure out my personal progress. It was a kinda of a tongue in cheek remark that apparently didn't come through that way over the interwebz. Sorry.

Hey, I resemble that remark.
J~

[NV Racer]

I just don't see switching this year healthy for SCCA.
NASA changes to Hoosiers in 2013, you got my vote.
If they change to something else or stay with Toyo will have to deal with all over again.
J~

That ship has already sailed SCCA has moved to Hoosiers. SFR can follow or stick with Toyos. NASA is irrelevant there are not many cross overs now. I think it would impact NASA more than SCCA. There is probably going to be a bigger impact to car counts next year due to the HANS requirement than which tire we run.

Dennis

[Johnny D]

That ship has already sailed SCCA has moved to Hoosiers. SFR can follow or stick with Toyos. NASA is irrelevant there are not many cross overs now. I think it would impact NASA more than SCCA. There is probably going to be a bigger impact to car counts next year due to the HANS requirement than which tire we run.

Dennis

You're welcome to your opinion, that's why we're discussing this.

But I personally don't agree with about every sentence you just wrote.
J~

[NV Racer]

You're welcome to your opinion, that's why we're discussing this.

But I personally don't agree with about every sentence you just wrote.
J~

You race with NASA so naturally you are going to lean towards keeping the RA-1. That makes you less than objective. Not that there is something wrong with wanting to save yourself some money. What NASA runs should not impact what SFR runs. Crossover from NASA is not a factor in my view. There are good points with both tires. Weigh the options without any bias is all I am saying.

Dennis

[Sacslider]

You race with NASA so naturally you are going to lean towards keeping the RA-1. That makes you less than objective. Not that there is something wrong with wanting to save yourself some money. What NASA runs should not impact what SFR runs. Crossover from NASA is not a factor in my view. There are good points with both tires. Weigh the options without any bias is all I am saying.

Dennis

Dennis-

I have been a die hard SCCA member until 2011. This year the cost of three day weekends (four with testing) has finally driven me to NASA. I had intended to cross over more but can not due to finacial restraints. I will be doing so next year if I am not required to buy different spec tires (and additional wheels) for those weekends. Cross over IS a factor when the region is watching revenue decline and costs increase (the reason for the three day weekends, however flawed the logic). Upsetting the apple cart and driving away customers by unwanted/needed changes that are PERCEIVED to increase costs are not usually wise. The 40+ car fields can very quickly become 25 car fields further driving up costs. Since you do not cross over with NASA you in reallity do not have a grasp on who does or does not cross over so I would disagree with your view.

In racing this class over the last eight years the one thing that causes more racers to just walk away is the perception of increased cost, no matter if the costs actually increased, in my view.

[Johnny D]

Are SCCA/SFR's prices based on using it for the TH track extension?
They are high, at least compared to NASA.
Not sure the reason.
J~

[NV Racer]

Dennis-

I have been a die hard SCCA member until 2011. This year the cost of three day weekends (four with testing) has finally driven me to NASA. I had intended to cross over more but can not due to finacial restraints. I will be doing so next year if I am not required to buy different spec tires (and additional wheels) for those weekends. Cross over IS a factor when the region is watching revenue decline and costs increase (the reason for the three day weekends, however flawed the logic). Upsetting the apple cart and driving away customers by unwanted/needed changes that are PERCEIVED to increase costs are not usually wise. The 40+ car fields can very quickly become 25 car fields further driving up costs. Since you do not cross over with NASA you in reallity do not have a grasp on who does or does not cross over so I would disagree with your view.

In racing this class over the last eight years the one thing that causes more racers to just walk away is the perception of increased cost, no matter if the costs actually increased, in my view.

Yes, I admit I do not cross over to NASA, That has more to do with NASA policies. SCCA has extended the olive branch by allowing NASA licenses But NASA failed to reciprocate. NASA is a for profit venture SCCA is a club. Charging spectators for example hurts NASA, there are many other issues that prevent me from crossing over. But like others you have a vested interest for keeping RA-1's in the region ie your Nasa involvement. That should as I stated before not influence the decision on tires. You have not raced with SFR this year even with the same tire so should we keep the RA-1 just because someone that races NASA my come over and race with us. Not a factor in my judgment. You mentioned the R-888 in the other thread. That was an example of the sky was falling mentality that is going on now. Hoosiers are a know quantity not a new tire many regions back East have successfully run them for years. In addition they are going to be around a long time to come. Toyo tried to dump the RA-1 once before who says they want again. As for costs Hoosiers will be cheaper in the long run. Shaving costs are up to $17 per tire now and no guarantee they will not rise more. Special shaves that some front runners use will be eliminated which will level the field for the budget racers. Allow a overlap at the start of the season. This should give everyone a chance to cycle some Hoosiers and the budget guys to run out their current tires. As for NASA vs. SCCA Through July 25 there has been 91 different drivers in SMT/SSM in SFR and only 49 in NASA. We need to do what is right for SFR without regards for any potential NASA crossover.
Dennis

[dtfastbear]

Dennis,

Not only will NASA issue a license to any current SCCA license holders, they also have an explicit consideration to accept an SCCA annual tech/logbook. Try to get THAT reciprocation from SCCA! ;-)

The NASA rule book is publicly available, so it might be good to do a simple check before making negative statements. In all seriousness, you might want to stop by a NASA event some time (I'll get you in for free) to see for yourself how they are run. You seem to have some pretty strong held perceptions that may no longer be accurate, as things have changed a lot over the last few years.

While I personally (with a strong bias) would like to see Norcal NASA and SFR SCCA remain on the same tire, I can see both sides of the argument. I'd like them to be the same because when folks cross over, I get to see more of my "old SCCA" friends. [on soap box] When SCCA decides (like Grand-AM, ALMS, LeMans, etc) that FIA seats on race sliders are safe, then I'll see those folks at SCCA events

EDIT: For the record in the interest of full disclosure, I am the current NASA NorCal spec miata series Director (i.e. a NASA Official), so I'm clearly biased. That being said, I'm a 20 year SCCA member, current SCCA Regional license holder and have competed in SCCA races for the last 6 consecutive years.

Cheers,

Dean

[Sacslider]

1)Yes, I admit I do not cross over to NASA, That has more to do with NASA policies.

2)But like others you have a vested interest for keeping RA-1's in the region ie your Nasa involvement. That should as I stated before not influence the decision on tires. You have not raced with SFR this year even with the same tire so should we keep the RA-1 just because someone that races NASA my come over and race with us. Not a factor in my judgment.

3)You mentioned the R-888 in the other thread. That was an example of the sky was falling mentality that is going on now. Hoosiers are a know quantity not a new tire many regions back East have successfully run them for years.

4)Toyo tried to dump the RA-1 once before who says they want again.

5)As for costs Hoosiers will be cheaper in the long run. Shaving costs are up to $17 per tire now and no guarantee they will not rise more. Special shaves that some front runners use will be eliminated which will level the field for the budget racers.

6)Allow a overlap at the start of the season. This should give everyone a chance to cycle some Hoosiers and the budget guys to run out their current tires. As for NASA vs. SCCA Through July 25 there has been 91 different drivers in SMT/SSM in SFR and only 49 in NASA.

7)We need to do what is right for SFR without regards for any potential NASA crossover.

Dennis

I have broken up your post to respond accordingly...

1) I understand your issues with NASA as I had many of the same. This however is not a NASA vs SCCA thread. This has to do with SM racers and where they can/will race.

2)Yes I have a vested interest. I want to keep my (and others) options open. I want to do what is best for the class in a time when grids are shrinking. Seperation and exclusivity do niether organization any good and the class WILL suffer for it.

3)The R888's did cause the sky to fall. They were not the tire we were told they were and within a year the club left them to go back to the RA1. I know only a very few number of people that have spent a large amount of time on the hoosiers and several have gone to over brands since then. If you think just because people have raced on Hoosiers back east that there will be no problems I think you need to check your purple kool-aid.

4)Can anyone please point to where this information that the RA1 will be discountinued in the US?

5)This is a point where our opinions split. I do not think the overal tire cost will go up or down by any great amount. If running Hoosier you will have to buy rains and they will sit. The rain is a true rain tire (I believe) not intermediate so it will be great in very wet conditions and worn out immediately in anything less. The Hoosiers will not have a significantly greater number of "fast" heat cycles than a short shaved set of Toyos (This only matters towards the front of the grid). The unanswered question for the budget racer is how far off will the hoosier fall as it heat cycles out and how many heat cycles will that take in comarison to the Toyo? Or stated another way how much slower is a 12 heat cycle Hoosier vs and Toyo compared to peak?

As for leveling the playing field, this is a fantacy. The playing field is very level. Tire shaves are not what allow the people at the pointy end of the grid to be there. The fast drivers will still be up front and the mid pack drivers will still be in the mid pack. Those that have the abilities to adapt quickly to the new tires will be further up the grid for a short while but a new tire will not re-shuffle the grid.

6)Overlap is fine if you have absolutely no opinion as to where you finish. Not a common trait in people that race cars. As to who has more racers, who cares. The question I would ask is how many names are on both lists?

7)As far as that goes, I will tell you that you would be welcomed to a NASA event with open arms. Seems that the reverse is not so true.....

[NV Racer]

I have broken up your post to respond accordingly...

1) I understand your issues with NASA as I had many of the same. This however is not a NASA vs SCCA thread. This has to do with SM racers and where they can/will race.

2)Yes I have a vested interest. I want to keep my (and others) options open. I want to do what is best for the class in a time when grids are shrinking.

3)The R888's did cause the sky to fall. I have a set of R888's with plenty of life left but we were lead to believe that they would wear out prematurely by those against change

4)Can anyone please point to where this information that the RA1 will be discountinued in the US? Is there a signed contract good through 2014 for any tire other than Hoosier?

5)This is a point where our opinions split. I do not think the overal tire cost will go up or down by any great amount. If running Hoosier you will have to buy rains and they will sit. The rain is a true rain tire (I believe) not intermediate so it will be great in very wet conditions and worn out immediately in anything less. Allow RA-1 rains in the region everyone should have plenty of tread left on those. Heaven knows we do some much racing in the rain here in the west


As for leveling the playing field, this is a fantacy. The playing field is very level. Hoosiers will not change that mid pack drivers will still be mid pack but possible a little closer to the front


7)As far as that goes, I will tell you that you would be welcomed to a NASA event with open arms. Seems that the reverse is not so true.....

Dennis