603 replies to this topic

[dstevens]

Russia eliminated the rich to favor the poor and we all know how that turned out.

It turns out Russia is 3rd in the number of billionaires in the world currently. One reason the Soviet Union fell was because they favored the rich and took the working class for granted.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

don't shoot the messenger I'm just stating what I was told .I'm not trying to slam anybody here .my point is I was at a national race and finished second and my tech inspection was, take off your shoes and let me see your socks !

what the hell kind of tech inspection is that ?

[Chris70]

That is true for Russia NOW, not during the communist regime.
Ademir

[Caveman-kwebb99]

don't shoot the messenger I'm just stating what I was told .I'm not trying to slam anybody here .my point is I was at a national race and finished second and my tech inspection was, take off your shoes and let me see your socks !

what the hell kind of tech inspection is that ?

Usually they call those type of inspections NASA tech inspections LOL.

[Alex Bolanos]

Add: set your car up properly
Add: tune your car properly
Add: keep decent tires on your car

and that is what we have now

Interestingly enough, these three items add up to more lap time than all the parity issues mentioned in this thread....

[Waterboy]

Interestingly enough, these three items add up to more lap time than all the parity issues mentioned in this thread....

That's just not possible.

[dmathias]

I feel most reassured that all is well with SM.

What was the problem again?

[Craig Heyl]

Ok so I'm late in this discussion. I hardly have time to keep up with the racing let alone this blog.

I've run in SM for 6 years now, and what attracted me to the sport, still does. I echo Collin's thoughts and points, about where SM was a few years ago, already discussed in the thread.

My '94 is very well set up, nice motor, prep etc and I've spent plenty of time getting it that way. But if I were to wreck the car, total it, I would not build another SM. $30k - $40k isn't really expensive for a race car. All things considered. But it's way too expensive for a Miata. I didn't enter SM racing to see how much money I can spend. However, what are the real alternatives to full-fields, tight racing, and relatively low budget racing? I haven't found one so I still run SM. But the cost for motors, and a good car is still expensive. Maybe an MX5, but I'd be out there racing myself....

In Regionals, I've run up front, I've run mid pack. No matter what anyone says, the front is way more fun. But its costing more and more to do so. To manage cost, I just run fewer races. But that takes the fun out.

SM is still a great class, one of the best in SCCA. But the tech is very inconsistent, the 1.6l and 99's are NOT the same car no matter how much you care to try. Slowing down slow cars to being with, to make parity in the class, seems counter-intuitive to the idea of racing, but I get it. The constant rule changing with plates and weights drives me crazy. Sealed motors might be a good idea if cost is managed. Tighter rules means more cost however.

As Danny says, lots of time with data, seat time and practice pays off. But if you want to run at the front it's going to cost you $, and you'll want 99 car. I'd love to run more National races, but I have to treat them as simply a test day because the National prep cars are in a class of their own.

Craig Heyl

[Todd Green]

If your car is down more than 5 HP( 3 is tough IMO) to the perceived best cars of your generation, you will not and should not win a competitive SM race.

That makes McKeever's 2010 NASA Championship win all the more impressive. He blew a motor in one of the qualifying races, borrowed someone's backup that was down around 5% on power, and drove through most of the field for the win. IIRC, there were no yellows to bunch the field up either. That man can wheel.

Anyway while I'm posting might as well throw in my thoughts as someone who's been in motorsports for ~15 years and racing SM for the last two. Got into SM for the same reasons most of us do. Large fields, close racing, "affordable" costs, and a good community.

1) Keep the class together (yes I have a 1.6). The economy and other issues have decimated (at least our local) fields. The main reason to race in SM is having someone to actually race. IMHO, if you are chasing a National championship then get the right car and stop trying to fix the unfixable. The cars are close and I'd wager 95+% of the time in regional races it comes down to the driver and car prep.

2) Still too much contact. I know of at least two cars that have been totalled in my region. I don't think the contact is malicious, but the nature of SM seems to get people in over their head, or the red mist sets in. Other than the economy I see this as one of the major problems locally for diminishing field sizes.

3) Tech. Ramp it up all you want for National races, but keep it simple for Regional races (weights and plates, non-intrusive/quick checks). I race to have fun. If I'm going to be spending my Sat/Sun nights putting a motor back together, I'll be taking the money it takes to race and buying a ticket to Brazil to be sipping caipirinhas on the beach and having fresh crab/lobster/shrimp/churrasco/feijoada daily. IMO, stringent tech makes sense if you are racing for sponsorship $$$, but a $10 trophy? Throw a V8 in your car for all I care. You're the one who has to live with yourself at night.

4) NASA and the SCCA need to play nicer together. Having separate rules makes it an either/or proposition for many. Having different tires really sucks. I'm not buying extra sets of wheels and/or mounting/unmounting etc. Granted it doesn't seem like this is going to change, so I'm just pissing into the wind about it. Having the Runoffs and the NASA Championships so close together means you get little cross over as well. I'd love to see how all the top SCCA dogs do at Mid-Ohio or MMP. It's good to see that there appears to be some headway in this area.

5) I agree with everything that has been said about data acq, video, coaching, working with faster drivers. Of course the car is important too. It shouldn't be a surprise that those running at the front have "all of the above". But if you are many seconds off the leaders and think a motor or car year is the difference you are kidding yourself.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

IMO, stringent tech makes sense if you are racing for sponsorship $$$, but a $10 trophy? Throw a V8 in your car for all I care. You're the one who has to live with yourself at night.

5) I agree with everything that has been said about data acq, video, coaching, working with faster drivers. Of course the car is important too. It shouldn't be a surprise that those running at the front have "all of the above". But if you are many seconds off the leaders and think a motor or car year is the difference you are kidding yourself.

I couldnt agree more, I have never witnessed anyone at the front that I thougth was cheating. I have seen several in the mid pack that were for sure cheating. What are they cheating for, I guess 15th is better than 25th.
I have given my pole lap data to one racer in particular that was 3 seconds slower a lap than me at the time, low and behold he is now less than .3 a lap slower. He is now working on his consistency but his speed is there. He already had a decent motor and decent car. I also helped him with some setup advice, both those items and his dedication along with percerverance have him on the podium now. His cost was ZERO $! All he needed was some help finguring out why he was so far off the pace and then he got himself focused on making up the difference. He didn't need to get a $7k engine he just needed to drive what he had better.

[naparsei]

I have given my pole lap data to one racer in particular that was 3 seconds slower a lap than me at the time, low and behold he is now less than .3 a lap slower. He is now working on his consistency but his speed is there. He already had a decent motor and decent car. I also helped him with some setup advice, both those items and his dedication along with percerverance have him on the podium now. His cost was ZERO $! All he needed was some help finguring out why he was so far off the pace and then he got himself focused on making up the difference. He didn't need to get a $7k engine he just needed to drive what he had better.

Comparing my data (from my last race) to a quicker driver in a similar 1.6 made me realize that I could probably get some time with a better motor (or tuned, which I am going to do after reading this thread!), but most of the delta was simply - although we were braking at the same points - he came off the brakes sooner than me. If I can do that, I get a 1.5-2% improvement in lap times right there.

Also, there's been a lot of talk about data. It's great. Do not underestimate the learning curve to getting everything working (software, mostly), or the amount of time it takes to go through the stuff. It's great, but there's a significant time as well as money cost. It's worth it, IMO.

[Keith Novak]

I couldnt agree more, I have never witnessed anyone at the front that I thougth was cheating. I have seen several in the mid pack that were for sure cheating. What are they cheating for, I guess 15th is better than 25th.
I have given my pole lap data to one racer in particular that was 3 seconds slower a lap than me at the time, low and behold he is now less than .3 a lap slower. He is now working on his consistency but his speed is there. He already had a decent motor and decent car. I also helped him with some setup advice, both those items and his dedication along with percerverance have him on the podium now. His cost was ZERO $! All he needed was some help finguring out why he was so far off the pace and then he got himself focused on making up the difference. He didn't need to get a $7k engine he just needed to drive what he had better.

That sounds like the importance of attitude affecting the outcome of the class that I've noticed lately.

We have 2 local sanctioning bodies. SCCA stacked towards the front with really fast guys and "Conference" with some fast guys but more average schmos like me. An impression has developed with some that the SCCA group is becoming elitist and that you have to be really fast to belong in the group so a lot of the conference guys don't want to race SCCA. Unfortunately it's a really small minority that contributes to that opinion. Many of the people in that really fast group, including some of the very fastest are the nicest, most helpful and supportive people you'll ever meet but they can seem intimidating to newer or slower guys. A few drivers give the impression that they'd kill their own grandmother for one finishing position, or once they start getting faster either act like their poop don't stink anymore and slower guys be damned, or get so serious about getting a bit faster that they start to take the fun out of it for themselves and the people around them.

That seems to breed a sense that you have to be blazing fast to be part of the community and can lead to people cheating if they think it can get them up a bit further or getting discouraged and/or looking elsewhere. I had a big weekend where I was damn slow in the dry but when it rained, I was on fire. I got the definite sense that several people were pissed that the slow guy went fast and despite finishing much farther up in the pack than I've ever done before and being thrilled at the time, the sour attitude ruined all the fun for me. Other weekends, I've started out having a really bad time and the support of others turned it into a great weekend.

If we want to keep a big vibrant healthy class, we have to remember to be stewards of our own class. There is no front of the pack without the middle and the back. To keep big fields we have to keep developing new drivers and the people who are already good drivers play a huge part in bringing the new ones along.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Hey I love this class and the people in it,I just hate my pocket book!

Anybody who knows me knows I'm one of the nicest guys out their and would do anything to help anybody who needs it.All I have to say is,dont let a couple bad apples out there ruin it for you.Like this guy I know named Kyle!

Just kidding Kyle!

What would be the problem if we were all allowed to run the 1.8 drive train and suspension on all gen cars?

Wouldnt that just leave us with a weight issue?

Just asking,stop yelling at me I'm very sensitive

[racinglawyer]

I keep saying this, if you cheat you will know what I mean

"When you win or do well by cheating all you prove is you know how to cheat", nothing more, nothing less.

Cheating is the same as stealing and anyone who cheats and is caught should be treated as a thief.

[Jim Boemler]

I agree 100%, but I also have to acknowledge that "treated as a thief" hasn't reduced the number of thieves over the centuries.

[dstevens]

Cheating is the same as stealing and anyone who cheats and is caught should be treated as a thief.

But counselor, if there are no police or prosecutors, how do we catch and punish the offenders?

[Rob Burgoon]

I keep saying this, if you cheat you will know what I mean

"When you win or do well by cheating all you prove is you know how to cheat", nothing more, nothing less.

Cheating is the same as stealing and anyone who cheats and is caught should be treated as a thief.

Someone doesn't like my distinction between "out of compliance" and "cheaters".

[dstevens]

Someone doesn't like my distinction between "out of compliance" and "cheaters".

So how does that work, exactly, knowing what is out of compliance and what is an outright cheat? Say I show up with 35 series, 16" RA-1s. Am I cheating or out of compliance? How about that guy last season that had the exhaust that added to rear downforce? And at the time it was to the letter of the rules.

Sammy shows up with some shocks where now another respected member of the community says the rebuilder is out of spec and lot's of folks throw Sammy under the bus, labeling him a cheater. But, the first place guy gets bounced for an engine infraction, trying to start a fight and some unsavory driving but because the in crowd likes the builder it's a measurement issue.

Outright cheats can be "out of compliance" parts. It just depends on the part. It's not always black and white.

[Danny Steyn]

If we want to keep a big vibrant healthy class, we have to remember to be stewards of our own class. There is no front of the pack without the middle and the back. To keep big fields we have to keep developing new drivers and the people who are already good drivers play a huge part in bringing the new ones along.

thanks for reminding us Keith. This is the whole point of this thread

As I mentioned in the first post that started this thread, a "healthy" discussion is needed to address real and perceived issues, but that on this forum, and on the track, we need to behave in a way that encourages drivers to jump into our class. Bad behaviour on the track fortunately gets forgotten, and unless the new driver was there to see it, he will never know. However what makes the forum so dangerous, is that it lives forever. When posting on this thread and on any subject for that matter, ask yourself, am I actively encouraging drivers to join, or am I potentially scaring them away.

All our dirty laundry can still be aired in public, but in a positive way that shows that we are aware that there are issues, and that we are addressing those issues. Brushing them under the table is a sure way to kill the class.

But as so many have attested in this thread, Spec Miata is still by far the best class going in SCCA and NASA. It enjoys the most class participation, has the closest racing, and even for non SM drivers, many will agree that week after week SM puts on the best show at the track, and you will see them lining the turns to watch the action.

Just take a look at the SpeedcastTV broadcast and look at the number of spectators at T5 at Road America. No other class had that spectator depth.

[George Munson]

So after almost 400 replies to this post it's come down to clean up the lack of "Tech", play nice on the track, and don't show up to a "Gun Fight with a Knife". I can dig it. Now can we all sit around the camp fire, drink beer and sing "Kumbiya".