603 replies to this topic

[steveracer]

I agree, I think it should be either/or...

[adam81]

I represent "the new young guy trying to get into racing". I currently do track days and have a very common conversation all too often:

"What racing class can I get into for cheap that I can be competitive because I am a good wheel and not because I have the most money and there will be a fairly large showing at whatever race I compete in?"

I have been following SM for a few years now. It seems every year it is more and more expensive to run. It is no longer a budget class.... Yes words like cheap, and budget are all in perspective. We all know racing is not cheap regardless of what you are doing but it can be done at a great value. That is what SM represented.

Here was the "outside" view about SM:

1. You could build a fun, safe, competitive car for around $10k. Everyone used the same parts or VERY similar parts.
2. At any given race the field would be quite large
3. The car was reliable and when it broke it was cheap to fix
4. It is a SPEC class. You are racing driver vs driver not wallet to wallet. The guy who has maintained, prepped, and put the time in to setup the car AND can drive should be able to win. It doesn't matter how much money you have..... All it would take is time and effort to win as well as a good driver...not money...

I don't think SM is that way anymore. I wish it was..... I wish that my time spent on prepping, maintaining, and setup as well as my driving skill showed at the track. That my car was just as good as the next guys because we had the same parts and those parts performed the same (SPEC class!!!!). And I could do it all for $15k or less. I think that is the magic number....

At the end of the day the average new guy looking to get into grassroots racing wants to compete driver to driver. I want to win or lose because I was a better driver or not....

[Bruce Wilson]

I represent "the new young guy trying to get into racing". I currently do track days and have a very common conversation all too often:

"What racing class can I get into for cheap that I can be competitive because I am a good wheel and not because I have the most money and there will be a fairly large showing at whatever race I compete in?"

I have been following SM for a few years now. It seems every year it is more and more expensive to run. It is no longer a budget class.... Yes words like cheap, and budget are all in perspective. We all know racing is not cheap regardless of what you are doing but it can be done at a great value. That is what SM represented.

Here was the "outside" view about SM:

1. You could build a fun, safe, competitive car for around $10k. Everyone used the same parts or VERY similar parts.
2. At any given race the field would be quite large
3. The car was reliable and when it broke it was cheap to fix
4. It is a SPEC class. You are racing driver vs driver not wallet to wallet. The guy who has maintained, prepped, and put the time in to setup the car AND can drive should be able to win. It doesn't matter how much money you have..... All it would take is time and effort to win as well as a good driver...not money...

I don't think SM is that way anymore. I wish it was..... I wish that my time spent on prepping, maintaining, and setup as well as my driving skill showed at the track. That my car was just as good as the next guys because we had the same parts and those parts performed the same (SPEC class!!!!). And I could do it all for $15k or less. I think that is the magic number....

At the end of the day the average new guy looking to get into grassroots racing wants to compete driver to driver. I want to win or lose because I was a better driver or not....

You could buy a fairly competitive used car for around 15k but not build one. But to remain competitive you'll need to buy tires at least every other weekend and that's not going to change with any ruleset that I can think of. Hopefully we can get 2 weekends out of a set of Hoosiers, but I'm not holding my breath.

Some folks like to spend a lot of money on racing, but just because you can doesn't mean you have to.

-bw

[adam81]

You could buy a fairly competitive used car for around 15k but not build one. But to remain competitive you'll need to buy tires at least every other weekend and that's not going to change with any ruleset that I can think of. Hopefully we can get 2 weekends out of a set of Hoosiers, but I'm not holding my breath.

Some folks like to spend a lot of money on racing, but just because you can doesn't mean you have to.

-bw

That is news to me...... From everything I have seen a competitive car (to me competitive means you can win...) goes for roughly $25k and up for a used car. I just looked in the classifieds.

[Bruce Wilson]

Adam,

I've seen several really good cars that could win in capable hands sold for that range. but this is racing and you do need to do your homework. Don't be confused by a few race old turnkey top prepped car prices. What's wrong with the JD 1994 car for 12.5k?? it's won at the National level. Oh you wanted a no expense spared $40k car, eh? Okay I'm with ya


-bw

[adam81]

Adam,

I've seen several really good cars that could win in capable hands sold for that range. but this is racing and you do need to do your homework. Don't be confused by a few race old turnkey top prepped car prices. What's wrong with the JD 1994 car for 12.5k?? it's won at the National level. Oh you wanted a no expense spared $40k car, eh? Okay I'm with ya


-bw

You are right.....I do need to do my homework. That's why I am here.... I am not confusing "a few race old turnkey top prepped car prices". Those cars have won recently and are offered for sale now....

There is nothing wrong with that car..... Besides the fact that it was winning in 2006 and last raced in 2009. A lot has changed since 2009 let alone 2006.... What would you have to do to it to make it competitive in today's racing??? I am in know way bashing the car.... You are just proving my point here...

I stated I want a reliable, well built, competitive car for $15k. Again as I stated that is just not possible in SM anymore.... And it's too bad. However please prove me wrong. I would appreciate any information you can share.

Show me a recently sold car or a car for sale that is around $15k that is ready to go now and be competitive. Seriously show me....please! I'm hear to learn and would love to do so.... Thank you for your time explaining some of this to me.

[Bruce Wilson]

Not proving any point of yours, not even one.

I already told you it could be done and don't have time to help people who can't be polite.

Good luck...

-bw

[adam81]

Not proving any point of yours, not even one.

I already told you it could be done and don't have time to help people who can't be polite.

Good luck...

-bw

Umm.....I wasn't being rude in the least bit. If I came off that way it is not what I meant. I am being sincere in wanting to learn and am very interested in what you have to say. I said that a few times in the above post... I am here to learn and you seemed to have some knowledge that you were willing to share. However you stating it can be done with no proof doesn't do much for me. Hence the questions. I apologize if I came off somehow with a negative attitude or being impolite. Again it was not my intention at all. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote. I know I did and I re-read yours as well....

[William Bonsell]

Here's a car which probably can be had for less that is capable of running high 1:41's at Pacific Raceways in Seattle. That would certainly put you in the pointy end of a large grid. There are more than enough under 15K cars for sale which, in the right hands, with a great setup and fresh tires, could potentially win on a regional level. If you want to win the runoffs, you will indeed need a 40K car more than likely.

http://www.icscc.com...1991-Spec-Miata

Bill-

[Bruce Wilson]

Umm.....I wasn't being rude in the least bit. If I came off that way it is not what I meant. I am being sincere in wanting to learn and am very interested in what you have to say. I said that a few times in the above post... I am here to learn and you seemed to have some knowledge that you were willing to share. However you stating it can be done with no proof doesn't do much for me. Hence the questions. I apologize if I came off somehow with a negative attitude or being impolite. Again it was not my intention at all. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote. I know I did and I re-read yours as well....

Maybe I should make list of everything you want me to do

Look, there are people on this forum who've bought good cars capable of winning in that range. Mabye they can chime in...

-bw

[Ron Alan]

You are right.....I do need to do my homework. That's why I am here.... I am not confusing "a few race old turnkey top prepped car prices". Those cars have won recently and are offered for sale now....

There is nothing wrong with that car..... Besides the fact that it was winning in 2006 and last raced in 2009. A lot has changed since 2009 let alone 2006.... What would you have to do to it to make it competitive in today's racing??? I am in know way bashing the car.... You are just proving my point here...

I stated I want a reliable, well built, competitive car for $15k. Again as I stated that is just not possible in SM anymore.... And it's too bad. However please prove me wrong. I would appreciate any information you can share.

Show me a recently sold car or a car for sale that is around $15k that is ready to go now and be competitive. Seriously show me....please! I'm hear to learn and would love to do so.... Thank you for your time explaining some of this to me.

Do I detect an "I know everything attitude" with the "please prove me wrong" statement??? Bad start if your serious

Someone has lead you to the koolaid tank and you seem to have drunk way to much!

First off, in our region, which my guess is the largest in the country(50 car average fields), I know of 6 cars for sale under 12k...and a very good car at 8k! The 2nd place car in our region last year which also finished 2nd at the 2010 NASA Nationals sold for right around 15k. We are driving an original 60k mile car with its original bottom end, a new head, and the legal fuel pressure regulator. We finished 4th in our region this year with 3 podium finishes.

If your worrying about being competitive right off the bat you've already lost if you think you have to buy yourself good finishes. So much more to being fast than HP...which is basically what your betting on when you pay a lot of money for a top prep car. Seat time and BIG BOYS is what it takes to be fast...a really good car is the final piece of the puzzle...which at the national level you'll have to pay for.

If you want to be pessimistic about this class because of a few opinions you have heard...well, I feel sorry for you. Most of the people who love this class are rarely super vocal about it...we don't have to be! We hang around with like minded people(fast or slow)and have a great time...and avoid the sour grapes of the group!

BTW...yes, you came off not very polite...apologies go along way here

[Steve Kehl]

I may be new to the forums here, but I have been involved with Spec Miata for the last 5 years. What I would really like to see is a set horsepower and torque number, and mabye a curve it should follow and police it with a dyno. It is easy to do regionally as most tracks have a dyno at them anymore. I would certainlly make building the engine less expensive. If we are all racing with the same power number, then we can all just get back to racing and forget all the petty crap.

Steve Kehl

[adam81]

Do I detect an "I know everything attitude" with the "please prove me wrong" statement??? Bad start if your serious

I don't have a "know everything attitude"... I have a "know nothing" attitude. I am asking questions to either refute or confirm what I THINK I know about SM, which I know isn't very much, and what I may know may not be right

There are plenty of people complaining about all sorts of stuff in this forum about SM. The things I mentioned in my few posts here have been repeated over and over by many others. When I said "please prove me wrong" I literally meant it! It wasn't a challenge. I am saying "hey, this is what I think to be true.....if it's wrong tell me and show me why". I don't learn anything from "You're wrong....it can be done this way...the end".... I am on a few different forums, and I am willing to bet you won't find anyone who would describe me as being impolite or a know it all. And you definitely wouldn't find anyone at a racetrack who would describe me that way either. More than likely the opposite actually...

First off, in our region, which my guess is the largest in the country(50 car average fields), I know of 6 cars for sale under 12k...and a very good car at 8k! The 2nd place car in our region last year which also finished 2nd at the 2010 NASA Nationals sold for right around 15k. We are driving an original 60k mile car with its original bottom end, a new head, and the legal fuel pressure regulator. We finished 4th in our region this year with 3 podium finishes.

I appreciate you sharing the information. Prior to hearing from you, BW,and Bonsell I only saw what I thought were good cars for far more than $15k. I don't know if your market is priced a little lower because of the size of the class (supply and demand)? All three of you are in the NW. Now that I think of it I have seen better cars priced for a bit less that are out in that direction. I am in the Southeast so those cars are a fairly far from me and I don't search for cars out there...

If you want to be pessimistic about this class because of a few opinions you have heard...well, I feel sorry for you. Most of the people who love this class are rarely super vocal about it...we don't have to be! We hang around with like minded people(fast or slow)and have a great time...and avoid the sour grapes of the group!

Not pessimistic or a sour grape....

BTW...yes, you came off not very polite...apologies go along way here

I already apologized... But again I apologize if I came off offensive, combative, arrogant, whatever. That is not at all how I am. I am here to learn and appreciate ANY advice ANYONE has. I consider myself an empty vault right now just waiting to be filled with SM information, however it must be CORRECT information. Again thanks for your input!

[Ron Alan]

Apology accepted(speaking for myself )

Do understand...this forum is a small representation of the spec miata community. Like you, when i first started paying attention I found some of the most vocal guys seemed to have the "sky is falling attitude" and "nothing is fair". A quick snapshot of some of the threads(not all)and you would think SM will never last...but it has and given the current state of our economy, I think it has done fairly well...despite the chicken littles!

But what got me away from where you are at is just going to the track and participating! This made me realize a lot of what I read was some what exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, nothings perfect and SM has room for improvements...part of which was just addressed and we will all keep our fingers crossed the powers that be hit a home run! But regardless of how close they got it, people will complain no matter what.

And don't think for 1 second there wasn't an arms race 8 or 10 years ago...problem is the original "perception"of costs hasn't changed but little things called "inflation" and "market value" have! But i'm proud to say we are well under a $10k investment in the car and very competitive...granted I work for free on the car!

I read your original post again and feel your 4 points are still very accurate. To #4 though you have to assume great driving skills and equal to include the word "win". But don't expect "equal" drivers to finish together if one has a 180k junkyard motor(same car prep)and the other a fresh crate motor($2500) Believe it or not, there are a lot of guys who pay top dollar($5000)for a motor and still run midpack...and love it!

Start your build or buy a reasonable car and come out. If after a year or 2 you realize that cheap car is holding you back then start saving your pennies so you can buy a named car and give it your best shot! But you might find your kicking everyone's ass in the region with that cheap car and be happy with it

Edit...."Correct" in SM all depends on who you want to believe

[Mike Collins]

You are right.....I do need to do my homework. That's why I am here.... I am not confusing "a few race old turnkey top prepped car prices". Those cars have won recently and are offered for sale now....

There is nothing wrong with that car..... Besides the fact that it was winning in 2006 and last raced in 2009. A lot has changed since 2009 let alone 2006.... What would you have to do to it to make it competitive in today's racing??? I am in know way bashing the car.... You are just proving my point here...

I stated I want a reliable, well built, competitive car for $15k. Again as I stated that is just not possible in SM anymore.... And it's too bad. However please prove me wrong. I would appreciate any information you can share.

Show me a recently sold car or a car for sale that is around $15k that is ready to go now and be competitive. Seriously show me....please! I'm hear to learn and would love to do so.... Thank you for your time explaining some of this to me.

I will sell you a 1.6, ready to race right now. On the podium at a national in 2010. I think it was 5th this year. the car only ever races 1 national a year. Pretty much always a top 10 car regionally. I will sell it to you for $13,500 today only! this not a classified, this offer is to you ONLY. I have driven the car several times on test days and never in a race. My plan right now is to clean it up. Put some lipstick on it. I will drive it a couple times, do well and then ask $20k for THE EXACT SAME CAR. Do want to buy a car you have seen win or do want to buy a car you know can win? You pay more for the former!

[Todd Green]

Again as I stated that is just not possible in SM anymore.... And it's too bad. However please prove me wrong.

That's just one example of probably not picking the best choice of words and why people are taking issue with your perceived attitude. Anyway, I bought a used 1.6 in your price range ($10K-15K) two years ago and won 8 out of 16 regional races I entered this year and ran under the SCCA/NASA track record on 3 out of 4 configurations of our track. Did it on 3 sets of (BFG) tires. I think I was 7th out of ~30 at one National race I did after getting shuffled back to 14th on the first lap mayhem. You don't need a $40K car to compete/win regionally. Just be smart about watching cars for sale and you can pick up a $25K build at half price pretty regularly these days.

FWIW I absolutely had my ass handed to me the first couple of races I did. Don't be discouraged if you aren't doing as well as you thought you should in the beginning. There is a steep learning curve in this class. Don't assume everyone is cheating in front of you. Data acq is a must, IMO. Compare your laps to the faster guys and you'll see where you're losing time. Talk to the faster guys. Everyone is generally very helpful,until you start beating them.

The thing that will make you the fastest out there is experience. You can only get that by actually getting out there and racing. I also think you'll find that racing for 10th is every bit as much fun as racing for 1st. Certainly beats not racing at all IMO.

[Blake Thompson]

I may be new to the forums here, but I have been involved with Spec Miata for the last 5 years. What I would really like to see is a set horsepower and torque number, and mabye a curve it should follow and police it with a dyno. It is easy to do regionally as most tracks have a dyno at them anymore. I would certainlly make building the engine less expensive. If we are all racing with the same power number, then we can all just get back to racing and forget all the petty crap.

Steve Kehl

It was said 10 pages ago, but those not familiar with dynos think they are an objective tool. They're not, metrics are not predictable day to day, or even same day given changing environment. It is not a scientific device and not one I would be comfortable trying to foot my prep to.

[William Bonsell]

I bought a pretty inexpensive older car a few years ago. Original 125K motor and not much else. Got the tires...added a torsen diff...tuned the AFM...did wheel bearings etc and ran pretty much mid pack. Blamed it on the car. Then went to the dyno and found the cars HP and Torque numbers were pretty good, everything considering. Then handed the car to a real SM top flight driver and found the car capable of doing 2.5 seconds faster at a track where I had been running mid pack. I am afraid what you will find...and will need to get a hold of, is that for most of us, the car is secondary to the skill of the driver. Right now after 2 years, I'm still a mid pack driver, but getting better. The car is capable of running much faster than I can drive it. I think that is the experience of most of the SM drivers out there. Spec Miata will humble you especially if you think you are a great driver right off the bat!!

Bill-

[FTodaro]

Adam I hope your get the car you are looking for and can afford, I know this is not responsive to your question, but in the beginning its not about the car its about the driver. It took me two years to earn a podium. I stared out about 3/4 of the way to the back of the pack and slowly inched forward. It really was not about what was under the seat powering me, it was about the the guy in the seat driving it. I would get a decent car that you can afford to make a few mistakes in and start out there as you will make them and you will lean from making them. Speed comes with time no matter what the hardware your driving.

[LarryKing]

Adam81, You would be much better served to take the money you would waste on race cars and put it toward a solid investment. Run while there is still time.

[edit] I'm not joking at all - I can't imagine a bigger waste of money than motorsports.