603 replies to this topic

[Blake Thompson]

Adam81, You would be much better served to take the money you would waste on race cars and put it toward a solid investment. Run while there is still time.

[edit] I'm not joking at all - I can't imagine a bigger waste of money than motorsports.

hookers? heroine? marriage?

[Jim Boemler]

No, those are solid investments by comparison!

[Jim Drago]

Adam81, You would be much better served to take the money you would waste on race cars and put it toward a solid investment. Run while there is still time.

[edit] I'm not joking at all - I can't imagine a bigger waste of money than motorsports.

While I couldn't agree more.. I think he has already decided to make a silly purchase, just trying to make the "best" decision in what he buys

[Blake Thompson]

No, those are solid investments by comparison!

Clown Makeup!! Giant Shoes! Oddly good-fitting pants!

[Ron Alan]

Well, it's good to see that many drivers here are given you the exact same advise...over and over! So if you do choose to make a silly investment...and I do mean silly...you can jump in with both feet right now for under your magic # in a good car!! Good luck and look forward to seeing you in the mylaps pages!

[LarryKing]

Investment???

I surprized no one has pointed out that you can find some real deals on used IT cars - and in general the IT classes don't seem to destroy each other's "investments" (**snerk**) as often.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I represent "the new young guy trying to get into racing". I currently do track days and have a very common conversation all too often:

"What racing class can I get into for cheap that I can be competitive because I am a good wheel and not because I have the most money and there will be a fairly large showing at whatever race I compete in?"

I have been following SM for a few years now. It seems every year it is more and more expensive to run. It is no longer a budget class.... Yes words like cheap, and budget are all in perspective. We all know racing is not cheap regardless of what you are doing but it can be done at a great value. That is what SM represented.

Here was the "outside" view about SM:

1. You could build a fun, safe, competitive car for around $10k. Everyone used the same parts or VERY similar parts.
2. At any given race the field would be quite large
3. The car was reliable and when it broke it was cheap to fix
4. It is a SPEC class. You are racing driver vs driver not wallet to wallet. The guy who has maintained, prepped, and put the time in to setup the car AND can drive should be able to win. It doesn't matter how much money you have..... All it would take is time and effort to win as well as a good driver...not money...

I don't think SM is that way anymore. I wish it was..... I wish that my time spent on prepping, maintaining, and setup as well as my driving skill showed at the track. That my car was just as good as the next guys because we had the same parts and those parts performed the same (SPEC class!!!!). And I could do it all for $15k or less. I think that is the magic number....

At the end of the day the average new guy looking to get into grassroots racing wants to compete driver to driver. I want to win or lose because I was a better driver or not....

LOL, I thought some of those things 2 years ago when I got into SM. I didnt understand anything about the differences between one car for 8k or the one for 35k. It took me a year to figure alot of things out. I sought out some pretty smart people to help me, that was one of the smartest things I did. There is a much bigger difference in these cars than most people think. But I have to say this DRIVING is still the most important thing. Competitive is such a complex word as used int he SM community as a whole. I know lots of guys that feel 15th is competitive, I iknow I felt pretty competitive when I was running in 15th, and then again when I was running for 10th, then again when I was running int he top 5. All of this in a regional race mind you. I have even gotten to where I am a regular on the podium at a regional event, and sometimes winner, often times pole sitter. I felt the time was right to take my truck and trailer on road trip a couple times this year, and I had mixed results doing so. I found myself fighting it out for a top 10 at Watkins Glen National, it was my first time there, but after seeing the tallent that I was goigng up against it was a serious eye opener. I felt my top prepped car was just as good as any of the cars there, but my driving wasnt as good as it needs to be to win an event of that magnitude. I am sure many of the other great nationally competitive drivers have experienced those same feelings as they moved from the regional to the national level of events.

The bottom line is that there are lots of guys running regionals in a 10k car that are plenty fast and having the times of their lives. There are people spending 3 times that much money for a car and racing side by side with those same guys. I venture to guess though that there are not many guys spending 10k on a car and having lots of success at the national level. You have to decide what your own goals will be, concidering your individual budget and tallent level.

The sky is not falling although I often kidd that it is. This is still the most fun group to race with, there are all kinds of characters you will get to meet, and nearly everyone is willing to dive right under the hood of your car to help whenever you have a problem. Yes you can race IT or PT it is still racing and therefore fun, but there just isnt the same commeradarie that we get to enjoy in SM IMO. I have raced both and still have the most fun in SM.

[john mueller]

I bought a pretty inexpensive older car a few years ago. Original 125K motor and not much else. Got the tires...added a torsen diff...tuned the AFM...did wheel bearings etc and ran pretty much mid pack. Blamed it on the car. Then went to the dyno and found the cars HP and Torque numbers were pretty good, everything considering. Then handed the car to a real SM top flight driver and found the car capable of doing 2.5 seconds faster at a track where I had been running mid pack. I am afraid what you will find...and will need to get a hold of, is that for most of us, the car is secondary to the skill of the driver. Right now after 2 years, I'm still a mid pack driver, but getting better. The car is capable of running much faster than I can drive it. I think that is the experience of most of the SM drivers out there. Spec Miata will humble you especially if you think you are a great driver right off the bat!!

Bill-

Agreed. A few weeks ago I handed my home-garage-built-and-prepped mid-pack 1.6 car to a semi-pro driver. This guy had only driven a SM on one other occasion but his first lap was .4 better than my fastest lap (of that weekend). He only got faster as the 20-minute session went along ending with a time 1.2sec faster that me.

When we talked after & he feels the car is good but the grip issues he had made him feel there was 1-to-2 seconds that can be pulled from the car as it sits (set-up changes & tires). So that means the other 2-3 seconds between me and the front runners probably lands in my seat.

Each off season I choose a few items on the car to upgrade & develop over the upcoming season... Last years focus was resorting the car after a bad crash at the 25hr and adding Data Aq (Traqmate). This year I plant to get the set-up equipment sorted (level) for my tiny garage and choose a few weekends to hire a driving coach.

[Doug007]

As someone on the sidelines and thinking about finding a used spec miata (does 1 post give it away? ) I have to say I can't think of another class in amateur racing that has the advantages SM has, namely:

-you CAN go racing for <$10k
-tons of cars and spare parts available (helps keep the above number and operating costs low)
-huge fields (so there will be someone to race with regardless of $$ and skill level)
-lots of events between NASA and SCCA (and even matched weights and plates now!)

I have some friends that do other types of club racing (PCA, CVAR) and the cars are much more expensive ($30k for a ok car, not a top notch build), there are much smaller fields, and many fewer events within a reasonable drive.

The grassroots nature of SM is what makes it appealing to me. I won't have the cash for a 911 cup car anytime soon and want something reliable that has reasonable operating costs. Spec 944 is also pretty cheap for cost of entry, but I don't think those guys know what the word reliable means. Also here in TX there aren't very many of them to race with. Miata's are ideal for keeping costs down and the support of Mazda is amazing. Other classes simply don't have that.

Any rules to promote and enforce the 'spec' part of spec miata sound like good things for competition. I think the large price range for cars in SM is a byproduct of it's popularity. If there wasn't such intense competition, nobody would spend $40k on a miata. But in any racing series, there will be guys who outspend everyone else. My philosophy is, if I buy a $10k car on a good car and can be successful with it, I can always spend the $$ on engines or a professionally built car if winning at a higher level was a goal later.

With that does anybody know of any good deals on a decent SM around Houston?

[adam81]

I want to thank everyone for their opinions, posts, and information. I was under the wrong impression about the cost of a good regional car. If it wasn't for this board I may have continued to think the wrong info to be true and would may have looked elsewhere to race. Special thanks to Bruce for being the first to point out I was misinformed. And also to Mike Collins....we will be talking again...

[Bruce Wilson]

You're welcome Adam!

The best thing to remember about SM is ask and ye shall recieve. I think a lot of folks assume we hold back the good stuff and in reality that might be only true for about .5% of what we know and fully willing to share the rest. Enjoy your journey!

-bw

[Todd Green]

I was under the wrong impression about the cost of a good regional car. If it wasn't for this board I may have continued to think the wrong info to be true and would may have looked elsewhere to race.

Even if we're all sandbagging you, just trying to justify the $40K we've dumped into our cars for our $10 trophies , name another place to race where it is better. SM isn't perfect, but I can't think of another class with better racing for the $. In many ways better racing regardless of $.

[FTodaro]

As someone on the sidelines and thinking about finding a used spec miata (does 1 post give it away? ) I have to say I can't think of another class in amateur racing that has the advantages SM has, namely:

-you CAN go racing for <$10k
-tons of cars and spare parts available (helps keep the above number and operating costs low)
-huge fields (so there will be someone to race with regardless of $$ and skill level)
-lots of events between NASA and SCCA (and even matched weights and plates now!)

I have some friends that do other types of club racing (PCA, CVAR) and the cars are much more expensive ($30k for a ok car, not a top notch build), there are much smaller fields, and many fewer events within a reasonable drive.

The grassroots nature of SM is what makes it appealing to me. I won't have the cash for a 911 cup car anytime soon and want something reliable that has reasonable operating costs. Spec 944 is also pretty cheap for cost of entry, but I don't think those guys know what the word reliable means. Also here in TX there aren't very many of them to race with. Miata's are ideal for keeping costs down and the support of Mazda is amazing. Other classes simply don't have that.

Any rules to promote and enforce the 'spec' part of spec miata sound like good things for competition. I think the large price range for cars in SM is a byproduct of it's popularity. If there wasn't such intense competition, nobody would spend $40k on a miata. But in any racing series, there will be guys who outspend everyone else. My philosophy is, if I buy a $10k car on a good car and can be successful with it, I can always spend the $$ on engines or a professionally built car if winning at a higher level was a goal later.

With that does anybody know of any good deals on a decent SM around Houston?

Doug can't help you with a good deal around Huston, but don't limit yourself to an area, shipping is cheap and finding a good deal is out there if you look.

I agree with 100% of what you said about the advantages of racing SM, but I would add two big ones for me. you really learn to drive and you learn race craft. If you can race a SM in tight quarters with a little bump and grind now and then you will feel comfortable racing anywhere.

Regarding learning to drive, I came from driving a high hp GT3 and the capabilities of the car were scary, I could not learn to drive it at the limit and thus never really learned what i needed to learn.

Regarding race craft, the problem as you noted in your post with many other classes is the lack of close competition. I have always felt sorry for the guys who only have 3, 4, or 5 other competitors in there class. Once they pass or be passed, its over, just a DE at that point. In SM you learn allot about traffic, close racing, drafting, bumping. Setting up a pass that may take 3 laps to pull off.

We are so lucky to get to do it.

[Cnj]

With that does anybody know of any good deals on a decent SM around Houston?

Doug,

Call John Phillips @ Phillips Race Prep (JP3 on this site). He will be able to point you to a car in the Houston region. Ed Gilfus from Gilfus Racing in Austin can also help. Also consider coming out to the SCCA 6 hour enduro this Saturday at TWS in College Station where there will be a bunch of SM drivers who can answer any questions you might have. If you see a guy with "Willie the Tard" on his car, don't believe anything he says .

Cnj

[john mueller]

Doug,

Call John Phillips @ Phillips Race Prep (JP3 on this site). He will be able to point you to a car in the Houston region. Ed Gilfus from Gilfus Racing in Austin can also help. Also consider coming out to the SCCA 6 hour enduro this Saturday at TWS in College Station where there will be a bunch of SM drivers who can answer any questions you might have. If you see a guy with "Willie the Tard" on his car, don't believe anything he says .

Cnj

I can 2nd Ed Gilfus !!!! I got the pleasure of hanging with him and a few Texas racers at this years NASA Nationals, seriously nice bunch and a great guy.
I'll also 2nd helping out at an enduro - The is always something to do & no job is to small as it all has to get done and done right.

[Ron Alan]

You're welcome Adam!

The best thing to remember about SM is ask and ye shall recieve. I think a lot of folks assume we hold back the good stuff and in reality that might be only true for about .5% of what we know and fully willing to share the rest. Enjoy your journey!

-bw

[DrDomm]

There is nothing wrong with that car..... Besides the fact that it was winning in 2006 and last raced in 2009. A lot has changed since 2009 let alone 2006.... What would you have to do to it to make it competitive in today's racing???

I will let you know next year. Aside from the rear diff, bumpstops, tires, brakes and safety upgrades, it's competitveness will be a function of my learning curve. Now let's stop talking about it till I pick it up on Saturday.

[William Keeling]

As someone on the sidelines and thinking about finding a used spec miata (does 1 post give it away? ) I have to say I can't think of another class in amateur racing that has the advantages SM has, namely:

-you CAN go racing for <$10k
-tons of cars and spare parts available (helps keep the above number and operating costs low)
-huge fields (so there will be someone to race with regardless of $$ and skill level)
-lots of events between NASA and SCCA (and even matched weights and plates now!)

I have some friends that do other types of club racing (PCA, CVAR) and the cars are much more expensive ($30k for a ok car, not a top notch build), there are much smaller fields, and many fewer events within a reasonable drive.

The grassroots nature of SM is what makes it appealing to me. I won't have the cash for a 911 cup car anytime soon and want something reliable that has reasonable operating costs. Spec 944 is also pretty cheap for cost of entry, but I don't think those guys know what the word reliable means. Also here in TX there aren't very many of them to race with. Miata's are ideal for keeping costs down and the support of Mazda is amazing. Other classes simply don't have that.

Any rules to promote and enforce the 'spec' part of spec miata sound like good things for competition. I think the large price range for cars in SM is a byproduct of it's popularity. If there wasn't such intense competition, nobody would spend $40k on a miata. But in any racing series, there will be guys who outspend everyone else. My philosophy is, if I buy a $10k car on a good car and can be successful with it, I can always spend the $$ on engines or a professionally built car if winning at a higher level was a goal later.

With that does anybody know of any good deals on a decent SM around Houston?

most sub $10K cars are crap -- but you should find one that is ok at $10K or just above -- I know one local prep shop has a couple NAs (PhillipsRacePrep)

[William Keeling]

Doug,

Call John Phillips @ Phillips Race Prep (JP3 on this site). He will be able to point you to a car in the Houston region. Ed Gilfus from Gilfus Racing in Austin can also help. Also consider coming out to the SCCA 6 hour enduro this Saturday at TWS in College Station where there will be a bunch of SM drivers who can answer any questions you might have. If you see a guy with "Willie the Tard" on his car, don't believe anything he says .


Cnj

My car does not have "Willie the Tard" on it anymore -- and don't believe anything I say is rather harsh -- lets call it 50%

[adam81]

I will let you know next year. Aside from the rear diff, bumpstops, tires, brakes and safety upgrades, it's competitveness will be a function of my learning curve. Now let's stop talking about it till I pick it up on Saturday.

Awesome! I was trying to make a point at the cars expense. From what I know......which obviously isn't anything ....that looks like a good car at a good price. Good luck with it!