603 replies to this topic

[kverges]

My backup 1.6 car is available and not quite as quick as my primary 1.6 car, but not nearly as expensive. You are welcome to drive it at MotorSport Ranch where it lives if you are seriously interested in buying a car. I am going to do SRF and SM next year so its not a sbig a deal if my SM is down for a race or 2. Best to get me at kverges - "at" figdav.com - I don't come here that often.

[DrDomm]

Awesome! I was trying to make a point at the cars expense. From what I know......which obviously isn't anything ....that looks like a good car at a good price. Good luck with it!

Right. I think defining what a "competitive car" is will determine if it is affordable, as the class was designed to be. I think a "competitive car" is one that can finish in the top half of the field with an average driver. So, I think there are competitive cars in the $10-15K range. Defining a "competitive car" as one that can win is too optimistic...that would be a "winning car".

As I see it, you (average driver) should be able to be competitive (top half of field) in an affordable ($10-15K) Spec Miata.

[Colin MacLean]

Right. I think defining what a "competitive car" is will determine if it is affordable, as the class was designed to be. I think a "competitive car" is one that can finish in the top half of the field with an average driver. So, I think there are competitive cars in the $10-15K range. Defining a "competitive car" as one that can win is too optimistic...that would be a "winning car".

As I see it, you (average driver) should be able to be competitive (top half of field) in an affordable ($10-15K) Spec Miata.

I think you're stretching the definition of "competitive" here Yes you can finish top-half of the field in a 10-15K Miata, good luck making the podium though. That's not easy with the talent pool in SM. To me, if your car can't finish on the podium with a top driver it's not competitive.

[DrDomm]

Now that I'm on a posting roll, I want to dig up all the previous turmoil in the earlier sections of this thread. The big question of parity between the 3 generations of SM likely won't go away with the new weights & plates, and as others have said the Runoffs is the 800lbs elephant in the room. The concern is that many good NA cars/drivers don't come because the track is suited to the '99's. That's a shame.

I don't support splitting the class, but there needs to be some incentive to come for drivers/cars that feel they can't win. Surely there must be some SM-specific sponsor that would post some big award/contingency for the top NA 1.6 and 1.8 cars. Sure, you wouldn't get the big medal, but maybe some enticing prize. What would it take to convince the best NA cars/drivers to come to Wisconsin, even if they felt they were at a disadvantage to the '99's? Maybe '99 drivers should contribute to a fund that would buy this prize...ha ha.

(Since I'm investing in my own car, I want to help make this class as good as possible.)

[DrDomm]

To me, if your car can't finish on the podium with a top driver it's not competitive.

Well, then we agree. I said average driver. A "top driver" should be top 5 or podium in a "competitive car".

[Bruce Wilson]

I think you're stretching the definition of "competitive" here Yes you can finish top-half of the field in a 10-15K Miata, good luck making the podium though. That's not easy with the talent pool in SM. To me, if your car can't finish on the podium with a top driver it's not competitive.

I can think of two cars that sold in the last couple years that could potentially win a regional or even national event. That might be a function of more NAs on the West coast and more likely a result of the economy. Not going to find those cars everyday. In fact one of those cars was not even in any classifieds, but that is why "homework" is absolutely necessary.

-bw

[Cnj]

My car does not have "Willie the Tard" on it anymore -- and don't believe anything I say is rather harsh -- lets call it 50%

Yes I agree with Willie, I was probably being a little harsh, my apologies. You can trust about 50% of what he says

Cnj

[LarryKing]

What would it take to convince the best NA cars/drivers to come to Wisconsin

Move the event to Ohio?

I had a daydream - I wish I had the means to build the mythical 'all the bells and whistles, no compromise' 1.6 car, and then hire a top driver to wheel it at the Runoffs - just to weed out the BS.

How do y'all think it would do?

P.S.: Over on the ARRC results thread it appears some are suggesting that there is a wide-spread problem with non-compliance in SM, to the point that full teardowns are require at non-championship events. Shocking!!!

[Jim Drago]

Move the event to Ohio?

I had a daydream - I wish I had the means to build the mythical 'all the bells and whistles, no compromise' 1.6 car, and then hire a top driver to wheel it at the Runoffs - just to weed out the BS.

How do y'all think it would do?

P.S.: Over on the ARRC results thread it appears some are suggesting that there is a wide-spread problem with non-compliance in SM, to the point that full teardowns are require at non-championship events. Shocking!!!

First question..
Why don't you ask Steyn and Buras what they found when comparing data from the ARRC. Rather than popular opinions in either direction.. they have data.


ARRC is a REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.... There should be tech there. The tech issue is a funny one.. most, not you.. wwant to tech the winners and front guys, but why tech me, I finished 10th?? IMO tech should always be the top 3 and 3 random cars.

[LarryKing]

ARRC is a REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP

Then drivers who scored national points during the year should not be eligible to compete. Also, it is not an official championship, is it?

[Jim Drago]

Then drivers who scored national points during the year should not be eligible to compete. Also, it is not an official championship, is it?

What are you calling official? The winner of the event is the ARRC champion, IMO the third biggest race in SM?

Why shouldn't people scoring National points be eligible?

NO one in SM is getting a professional drive anytime soon, if ever... The fact that SM2 is even an option really bothers me.. IMO, very similiar to the trophies down to 10th place in children's sports...

I floated an idea by Butch that did not have any traction..
SM- open to all cars and drivers
SM2- Open to all cars and regional only drivers
SSM-SSM


Their is no justifiable reason for SM2 the way it stands right now.. I think Kopp, Buras, Balanos and Blake pretty much dispelled that myth. If Buras doesn't put it off in T3, a 1.6 wins overall.

[LarryKing]

The winner of the event is the ARRC champion

Good point.

Why shouldn't people scoring National points be eligible?

I understand that the Atl Region wants as many entries as possible, come one, come all. Makes sense. But you cannot call it the (default) Regional Championship or 'Regional Runoffs', by definition, if you permit national drivers to enter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but up until a year or two ago, didn't they exclude drivers with national points?

-BJM

PS: I meant I would like to see if an all-out 1.6 and top driver could compete at Road America, not Road Atlanta. It's been suggested that none have shown up to date. I wish I had the funds to test this theory.

[pat slattery]

If Buras doesn't put it off in T3, a 1.6 wins overall


Would that hold true if DS doesn't crash on the first lap, or Blake's gear box doesn't let go?

[Waterboy]

If Buras doesn't put it off in T3, a 1.6 wins overall


Would that hold true if DS doesn't crash on the first lap, or Blake's gear box doesn't let go?

Probably but wasn't blake in a 1.8 which is supposedly even more of an underdog than the 1.6. And Kopp finished 3rd in the 1.6.

[Jim Drago]

If Buras doesn't put it off in T3, a 1.6 wins overall


Would that hold true if DS doesn't crash on the first lap, or Blake's gear box doesn't let go?

Pat
it is racing... Could haves and would haves are meaningless... I suggest you pose it to Danny or Todd. He had Danny and Brown in his rear view until he retired?


Fact: They finished P2, P3 in front of lots of good 99's.

[James York]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but up until a year or two ago, didn't they exclude drivers with national points?

-BJM

No. They excluded drivers that raced in the Runoffs, not drivers with national points.

[Butch Kummer]

The fact that SM2 is even an option really bothers me.. IMO, very similiar to the trophies down to 10th place in children's sports...

I floated an idea by Butch that did not have any traction..
SM- open to all cars and drivers
SM2- Open to all cars and regional only drivers
SSM-SSM


Their is no justifiable reason for SM2 the way it stands right now.. I think Kopp, Buras, Balanos and Blake pretty much dispelled that myth.

Jim,

I'm willing to see if the parity argument abates or intensifies under the 2012 minimum weight and restrictor plate changes before making a decision on SM2 going forward. There's no doubt SM2 has been supported by those choosing to run in the class, but would most of them have shown up anyway (in SM) if SM2 was not an option? At the ARRC by GRM last weekend one of the leading proponents of SM2 told me he wasn't sure the class was necessary or not under the 2012 rules, so we'll continue to monitor the situation.

We'll have three months to evaluate the 2012 rules before I need to submit the Supps for our first event (the May 19-20 Rational at Road Atlanta) where SM2 would even be eligible to compete. The first five Nationals in SEDiv (including the March 16-18 Road Atlanta Double National) should give us an indication of whether SM2 needs to survive or not, I just need to know which cars are '99+ vs. '97-.

[adam81]

Right. I think defining what a "competitive car" is will determine if it is affordable, as the class was designed to be. I think a "competitive car" is one that can finish in the top half of the field with an average driver. So, I think there are competitive cars in the $10-15K range. Defining a "competitive car" as one that can win is too optimistic...that would be a "winning car".

As I see it, you (average driver) should be able to be competitive (top half of field) in an affordable ($10-15K) Spec Miata.

This is basically my definition of "competitive" as well. To me a competitive car is one in which I could take the winner of what ever race, put him in my car, hit rewind, and he would win again (I must note that I am considering both cars are equally maintained, taken care of, setup is on, etc....). Again a SPEC class, where races are won by driver skill and car setup and prep. When I hear the title of the class SPEC Miata.....this is what I think about. As some other have noted it wasn't until they were in it for a year or two that it wasn't quite as "spec" as they thought.........

Having said all that I am still VERY interested in running in the class. With SCCA and NASA on board with the same rules which equals more places to race in my area, the amount of help offered, and the access to all the knowledge and experience in racers and shops it is hard to keep moving on.

[Jim Drago]

Jim,

I'm willing to see if the parity argument abates or intensifies under the 2012 minimum weight and restrictor plate changes before making a decision on SM2 going forward. There's no doubt SM2 has been supported by those choosing to run in the class, but would most of them have shown up anyway (in SM) if SM2 was not an option? At the ARRC by GRM last weekend one of the leading proponents of SM2 told me he wasn't sure the class was necessary or not under the 2012 rules, so we'll continue to monitor the situation.

We'll have three months to evaluate the 2012 rules before I need to submit the Supps for our first event (the May 19-20 Rational at Road Atlanta) where SM2 would even be eligible to compete. The first five Nationals in SEDiv (including the March 16-18 Road Atlanta Double National) should give us an indication of whether SM2 needs to survive or not, I just need to know which cars are '99+ vs. '97-.

Just one out of division man here... But

I think if we allow all to race ARRC in Sm.. The place for SM2 is a REGIONAL DRIVER only status in any SM car.. Keep the SM, SM2 and SSM.. Guys who are your real candidates for SM2 are guys not running many nationals etc. If a ringer shows up in SM2, peer pressure would move them out or you pull them to SM if it is obvious they don't belong in SM2.
I think we made SM2 about cars, when it should have been about programs..

As far as next year, just like this year, the rules will be as close as possible, the year of your car will not determine the win.

Jim

[Steve D]

If Buras doesn't put it off in T3, a 1.6 wins overall


Would that hold true if DS doesn't crash on the first lap, or Blake's gear box doesn't let go?

All the incessant whining and nagging. I thought I was at home for a minute there...