603 replies to this topic

[screaming monkey]

I bought a pretty inexpensive older car a few years ago. Original 125K motor and not much else. Got the tires...added a torsen diff...tuned the AFM...did wheel bearings etc and ran pretty much mid pack. Blamed it on the car. Then went to the dyno and found the cars HP and Torque numbers were pretty good, everything considering. Then handed the car to a real SM top flight driver and found the car capable of doing 2.5 seconds faster at a track where I had been running mid pack. I am afraid what you will find...and will need to get a hold of, is that for most of us, the car is secondary to the skill of the driver. Right now after 2 years, I'm still a mid pack driver, but getting better. The car is capable of running much faster than I can drive it. I think that is the experience of most of the SM drivers out there. Spec Miata will humble you especially if you think you are a great driver right off the bat!!

Bill-

+1 the last two thirds.
Since my last visit to this thread it has become a sm love fest , an online intervention and some sort of specipedia . I love this bar...

[jaje]

I'm racing SM next year in NASA's new Central Region (in fact helping seed it with new drivers). I will probably refresh my own motor and hope it lasts the year as I do not want to spend the money to buy a built motor. I figure year 1 get used to driving it (though I come from 944-Spec so shouldn't be too hard). I do like the idea of a sealed motor from specific shops that are audited to ensure similar practices (that should eliminate the need for at the track dyno runs).

[htron435]

Please. Someone. Anyone. Put a wrap on this thread! I can't take any more.

Shut up and drive.

[Tom Sager]

Please. Someone. Anyone. Put a wrap on this thread! I can't take any more.

Shut up and drive.

Well, the off-season ends in a matter of weeks and at that point the future will be upon us so this thing should die due to necessity then. Until then there are some holidays to be enjoyed. After that I predict threads discussing that the 1.6 still can't win, the '99 is still an overdog while the 1.8 crowd cries that they can't win at anything less than 47mm. Meanwhile a few sneaky folks will build dominant '01 cars while the rest of us aren't looking.

[Go Time Racing]

Well, the off-season ends in a matter of weeks and at that point the future will be upon us so this thing should die due to necessity then. Until then there are some holidays to be enjoyed. After that I predict threads discussing that the 1.6 still can't win, the '99 is still an overdog while the 1.8 crowd cries that they can't win at anything less than 47mm. Meanwhile a few sneaky folks will build dominant '01 cars while the rest of us aren't looking.

Interesting... the mystery of the unknown 01 Miata left at my shop is finally solved!

[htron435]

Tom, thanks for reminding me. I forgot to ad that I can't possibly win in my lowly 1.6.

[Brian Wright]

Great thread. I like the ideas coming forth. SM is still the best class that it offers great competition at just about any level with an affordable price point. But once we get into a position of wanting to compete for points/wins/championships, then the cubic dollars come into play.

Here's a thought to consider which may be in the same vane as the 5X Racing na/nb division. Divide the class into 2 groups. Use the pop-up headlight cars as the low-buck spec class (crate motors, spec intake/exhaust/tire) with budget in mind. Use the fixed headlight models to a more open modification architecture (open intake/exhaust/tire, engine tweaks) with performance in mind.

Either way, I agree that the premise behind the "SPEC" Miata class it to take the car out of the equasion so the competition is between drivers and the set-up of their cars. With such a great history of the Miata, we have a pretty big discrepancy between performance. Maybe there is a way to accomplish this without dividing the class?

[Jim Drago]

I don't think you can ever "take the car out of the equation" even in SRF, especially in SRF actually, the car is as important as the driver, maybe more among top drivers. I think limit is possible, but you'll never take it out of the equation

Jim

[Jim Boemler]

I see it less about taking the car out of the equation, but rather about taking the cost out of the car.

[Bruce Wilson]

Which costs Jim? Tires have been by far the biggest cost for me -- not engine, body work, or any other single item has cost me nearly as much as tires. Even if we all ran junkyard engines, dynoed at 98hp, I'd still be spending several thousand bucks a year on tires to get a chance at the next win, so please fix that first

-bw

[Jim Boemler]

Tires are a consumable, like gas and oil. We all consume them at about the same minimum rate. Yes, some choose to always be on new rubber, but it's still based on consumption rates. If we had shocks free, for instance, there would be an arms race where some would spend tens of thousands of dollars to find the perfect shock. So we have a shock spec, and it lowers the cost for everyone. Same with wheels, same with minimum weights. We spec a whole bunch of things (including tires!) in order to preclude as much of the arms race as possible.

For what purpose? To reduce the cost of the car, and ultimately the cost of racing.

As for tires, mine are stamped 05 -- I'll trade with you any time!

[Cnj]

Tires are a consumable, like gas and oil. We all consume them at about the same minimum rate. Yes, some choose to always be on new rubber, but it's still based on consumption rates. If we had shocks free, for instance, there would be an arms race where some would spend tens of thousands of dollars to find the perfect shock. So we have a shock spec, and it lowers the cost for everyone. Same with wheels, same with minimum weights. We spec a whole bunch of things (including tires!) in order to preclude as much of the arms race as possible.

For what purpose? To reduce the cost of the car, and ultimately the cost of racing.

As for tires, mine are stamped 05 -- I'll trade with you any time! ;A

So what, in your opinion, is not sufficiently specified in the rules in order to lower costs?

Cnj

[Jim Boemler]

I was merely presenting a different viewpoint from Jim's. I wish I had all the answers, but I don't. It does seem to a lot of us, however, that the cost of racing has gone way up, without a commensurate increase in the fun. If we can reel that back somehow, it would be very welcome.

[James York]

I was merely presenting a different viewpoint from Jim's. I wish I had all the answers, but I don't. It does seem to a lot of us, however, that the cost of racing has gone way up, without a commensurate increase in the fun. If we can reel that back somehow, it would be very welcome.

Are you sure the cost of racing has gone up for you? Granted gas and entry fees may be marginally more expensive from 5 years ago, but not a significant amount. I think some people are racing on the same budget they did in 2007.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

_{IMO racing dollars are a larger piece of my over all dollars, since my income is shrinking under this administrations choices and my racing budget has remained the same. Equals a net rise as a percentage.}

[Doug007]

Great thread. I like the ideas coming forth. SM is still the best class that it offers great competition at just about any level with an affordable price point. But once we get into a position of wanting to compete for points/wins/championships, then the cubic dollars come into play.

Here's a thought to consider which may be in the same vane as the 5X Racing na/nb division. Divide the class into 2 groups. Use the pop-up headlight cars as the low-buck spec class (crate motors, spec intake/exhaust/tire) with budget in mind. Use the fixed headlight models to a more open modification architecture (open intake/exhaust/tire, engine tweaks) with performance in mind.

Either way, I agree that the premise behind the "SPEC" Miata class it to take the car out of the equasion so the competition is between drivers and the set-up of their cars. With such a great history of the Miata, we have a pretty big discrepancy between performance. Maybe there is a way to accomplish this without dividing the class?

It's called SSM isn't it? Maximum HP checked by a regional dyno, spec intake and exhaust.

I think this is a great option for those getting into racing and not making cubic dollars in their careers yet. The true cost driver is the competitiveness (on a national scale!) of spec miata. SSM seems like a reasonable solution to this problem.

http://www.nasaprora...miata_rules.pdf

[Jim Boemler]

Are you sure the cost of racing has gone up for you? Granted gas and entry fees may be marginally more expensive from 5 years ago, but not a significant amount. I think some people are racing on the same budget they did in 2007.

I see your point, and that's been true for me. The difference is that I've slipped backwards in the field over the years, as one by one other drivers have ponied up lots of money to buy better positions. While that's slightly different from the way I stated the problem earlier, I think it's the same problem.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Why couldn't we let the RP go and spec a cam and header for the earlier gen cars to make up the diff.?

I don't understand why we are alway's slowing down the faster cars to equel out the playing field.I would like to go faster then we are now and I feel that removing the RP and spec a cam and header for the earlier gen cars would make it alot more fun and cheaper to!

Just a thought !

[Jim Drago]

Most don't want to spend $$$^{, RP and ballast are cheap
Jim}

[Doug007]

RP and weight are also MUCH easier to tech!