603 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

I think Vettel should race Formula 2 next season.

[Ron Alan]

This is basically my definition of "competitive" as well. To me a competitive car is one in which I could take the winner of what ever race, put him in my car, hit rewind, and he would win again (I must note that I am considering both cars are equally maintained, taken care of, setup is on, etc....). Again a SPEC class, where races are won by driver skill and car setup and prep. When I hear the title of the class SPEC Miata.....this is what I think about. As some other have noted it wasn't until they were in it for a year or two that it wasn't quite as "spec" as they thought.........

Here lies the problem with your definition of "Spec". Technically speaking, every car out there is a "Spec" car as the rules are written(don't bring up cheating here...not relevant)...we all install the same suspension, tires, and everything else about each car is stock...or an approved mod. Though each component of every car is "Spec" does not guarantee each component of every car is equal in its performance. Based on age, mileage, and abuse among some factors, these "spec" components(which are all legal!)can add up to a dog of a car or a rocketship!

From above "won by driver skill and car setup and prep" Forget the first 2 here...

You can't take "level of prep" out of the equation of this "Spec" series. Assuming equal drivers, the best prepped cars will generally win...but we can't crap on the guys who have spared no expense to get everything out of the car...LEGALLY! To have someone say it isn't as "Spec" as they thought is a COP OUT. What they should be saying is "I need more seat time" or "I need a better set up man" or "I guess this 160k motor isn't going to get me a win as it sits"

Don't equate "Spec" with "Equal"

[Jim Boemler]

Don't equate "Spec" with "Equal"

While this may be true, tell me again what the GOAL of "spec" is again?

Ding, that's right: "equal".

The extent to which the legal spec cars are unequal is the extent to which the spec doesn't work. Not saying it can ever be perfect. It can even be too expensive to make it perfect, and no one wants that. But don't lose sight of the goal.

[adam81]

[quote name='Ron Alan' timestamp='1320879861' post='18089']
Here lies the problem with your definition of "Spec". Technically speaking, every car out there is a "Spec" car as the rules are written(don't bring up cheating here...not relevant)...[/quote]

Disagree. Spec means everything is the same, the EXACT same... Technically speaking every car out there should be equally competitive against one another in their respective classes according to their respective rules. Not one platform, car, chassis, whatever should have an advantage in one are or another. However, this is MY opinon....and you know what they say about opinions....

[quote name='Ron Alan' timestamp='1320879861' post='18089']we all install the same suspension, tires, and everything else about each car is stock...or an approved mod. Though each component of every car is "Spec" does not guarantee each component of every car is equal in its performance. [/quote]

Disagree. It is Spec when everything is the EXACT same..... Not when you can buy a similar product from x amount of manufacturers or distributors who's respective part is built around certain "guidelines" or "rules" that is SUPPOSED to make them equal.... That is not spec.

[quote name='Ron Alan' timestamp='1320879861' post='18089']Based on age, mileage, and abuse among some factors, these "spec" components(which are all legal!)can add up to a dog of a car or a rocketship![/quote]

AGREE


[quote name='Ron Alan' timestamp='1320879861' post='18089']From above "won by driver skill and car setup and prep" Forget the first 2 here...

You can't take "level of prep" out of the equation of this "Spec" series. Assuming equal drivers, the best prepped cars will generally win...but we can't crap on the guys who have spared no expense to get everything out of the car...LEGALLY! To have someone say it isn't as "Spec" as they thought is a COP OUT. What they should be saying is "I need more seat time" or "I need a better set up man" or "I guess this 160k motor isn't going to get me a win as it sits"[/quote]

AGREE (except for " To have someone say it isn't as "Spec" as they thought is a COP OUT")

[quote name='Ron Alan' timestamp='1320879861' post='18089']Don't equate "Spec" with "Equal" [/quote]

I do....... But I am not ignorant to the fact that a fresh well prepped maintained car is NOT going to run with a worn out maltreated car......

I respect your opinion and actual experience (I have zip...). My view is as an outsider, albeit one trying to learn. However those are my current feelings on it... Like I said this hasn't deterred my desire to race in this series.

[Keith Novak]

Disagree. Spec means everything is the same, the EXACT same...

Disagree. Spec means within the tolerances of a given set of specifications. No piece of machinery is EVER exact. It isn't even possible to measure them exactly (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle). Engineering (the stuff some of the guys used who designed the car and tooling to build it) isn't an exact science. It's "The art of good enough". A spec class is creating a set of specifications that attempts to make the cars close enough that they can be equally competitive.

[David L]

I am so sick of reading this thread. THIS IS THE BEST F'ING CLASS IN THE WHOLE WORLD. If you cant have fun here you dont deserve to race. If you dont like what it takes to WIN then don't try. YOU CAN'T FIND 1 OTHER CLASS THAT HAS THE CLOSE ACTION PACKED RACES THAT WE DO, GO TO A RACE AND TRY. WHEN IT COMES TO CARS YOU CAN SPEND 6000 TO 40000 IT DOESNT MATTER, THE DRIVER DOES!!!!!!! IN OUR LAST RACE WEEKEND MEATHEADS RUNOFFS CAR FINISHED BEHIND ME(he was not driving) I PAID $750.00 FOR MY CAR YES SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY AS IT RUNS ALL I DID WAS ADD THE REQUIRED SPEC EQUIPMENT. CAN I WIN NO, BUT I DO NOT PREP MY CAR AT ALL I ROLL IT ON AND OFF THE TRAILER AND I LOVE IT. IF I WANT TO WIN I WILL HAVE TO PUT IN BOTH THE TIME AND MONEY AND THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.

[adam81]

I am bowing out here.... My original post was intended to answer some of the original questions and points about this thread. Nothing more...... (well besides learn, which I did) Some of these rumors or thoughts or whatever that is swirling around about the series (not being that spec, taking a lot of money to win, etc) didn't pop out of thin air...... Unfortunately perception is reality.....

However, again I am excited to learn more about everything as right now I am planning to run in SM next year.....

[Jim Drago]

While this may be true, tell me again what the GOAL of "spec" is again?

Ding, that's right: "equal".

The extent to which the legal spec cars are unequal is the extent to which the spec doesn't work. Not saying it can ever be perfect. It can even be too expensive to make it perfect, and no one wants that. But don't lose sight of the goal.

Jim
Getting the best out of the car and getting to that "spec" is time consuming and can get expensive. I think if you ask most that run at the front, the Spec works and the cars are very close. If people chose not to get that "spec" or can't get there for financial or other reasons, that is not a lack of a spec... Atleast that is my opinion.

Nascar is as spec as it gets... Why do Hendrick cars win far more than all the others? Some teams ALWAYS do better within the system.

[Jim Boemler]

Not disputing your points, Jim. But "equal" really IS the goal. Some want to say we can't actually BE equal, so we shouldn't bother trying. If the new rule set gets us closer to equal, it will be a function of striving toward the goal, not abandoning it.

[dstevens]

Disagree. Spec means within the tolerances of a given set of specifications. No piece of machinery is EVER exact. It isn't even possible to measure them exactly (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle). Engineering (the stuff some of the guys used who designed the car and tooling to build it) isn't an exact science. It's "The art of good enough". A spec class is creating a set of specifications that attempts to make the cars close enough that they can be equally competitive.

In racing outside of SM spec is considered to be the same customer cars. Legends, SFR, EZ Kart, Radical, S2 Late Models, Skip Barber. It's the exact same equipment. SM is not a spec class in term of the way the rest of the racing world sees a spec class.

[dstevens]

Nascar is as spec as it gets... Why do Hendrick cars win far more than all the others? Some teams ALWAYS do better within the system.

Assuming you mean Cup, it's not a spec class either. It's a class with a very defined rules package. Using your definition of spec, most every race class would be spec because they all have some sort of rule or "spec". Adam is right, spec means you are in identical equipment, not equipment built within a particular rule set.

[Jim Drago]

Not disputing your points, Jim. But "equal" really IS the goal. Some want to say we can't actually BE equal, so we shouldn't bother trying. If the new rule set gets us closer to equal, it will be a function of striving toward the goal, not abandoning it.

I am of that belief... The cars WILL NEVER be equal as long as we have 15 years of vehicles, engine and body changes over the 15 years. Even is we picked one year, we still would not be equal... SRF cars are not EQUAL either. Nascars are NOT EQUAL.. IROC cars were not equal.. I don't believe equal is obtainable. Ever go to the local go kart track? Everyone always runs and fights for the few perceived "good" carts or is that just the Drago family?

All that being said.. What we have is pretty dam good!

[Jim Boemler]

All that being said.. What we have is pretty dam good!

I think we all pretty much accept that. All these arguments are about small things, in the context of an overall great class. Unfortunately, racing is often about small things.

[Jim Drago]

I think we all pretty much accept that. All these arguments are about small things, in the context of an overall great class. Unfortunately, racing is often about small things.

Very True

[john mueller]

I am so sick of reading this thread. THIS IS THE BEST F'ING CLASS IN THE WHOLE WORLD. If you cant have fun here you dont deserve to race. If you dont like what it takes to WIN then don't try. YOU CAN'T FIND 1 OTHER CLASS THAT HAS THE CLOSE ACTION PACKED RACES THAT WE DO, GO TO A RACE AND TRY. WHEN IT COMES TO CARS YOU CAN SPEND 6000 TO 40000 IT DOESNT MATTER, THE DRIVER DOES!!!!!!! IN OUR LAST RACE WEEKEND MEATHEADS RUNOFFS CAR FINISHED BEHIND ME(he was not driving) I PAID $750.00 FOR MY CAR YES SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY AS IT RUNS ALL I DID WAS ADD THE REQUIRED SPEC EQUIPMENT. CAN I WIN NO, BUT I DO NOT PREP MY CAR AT ALL I ROLL IT ON AND OFF THE TRAILER AND I LOVE IT. IF I WANT TO WIN I WILL HAVE TO PUT IN BOTH THE TIME AND MONEY AND THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.

Ah hell yeah !!!

[Cnj]

In racing outside of SM spec is considered to be the same customer cars. Legends, SFR, EZ Kart, Radical, S2 Late Models, Skip Barber. It's the exact same equipment. SM is not a spec class in term of the way the rest of the racing world sees a spec class.

Perhaps so and certainly none of those (except Radical?) are trying to make 3 generations of product development have equivalent (much less equal) performance. However I have done a couple of Legends races and as "spec" as that class is supposed to be, the guy that showed up with the $200k trailer rig and 3 mechanics had a faster car than my rental Legends. I have driven Barber cars and they do not have identical performance. I don't know about EZ Kart or S2's but I am told by SRF drivers that SRF's are not identical performers either. So even if I were to agree that SM is not a true "spec" (identical equipment across all cars), I'm uncompelled to see the other series as having reached the heights of equivalency nirnava.

Cnj

[Ron Alan]

I think we all pretty much accept that. All these arguments are about small things, in the context of an overall great class. Unfortunately, racing is often about small things.

Ok clown...was just going to explain myself but we obviously agree. How one defines "spec" can get opinions rolling. My only point was equal is not technically attainable given the current format, cars, and legal old parts...as Jim D pointed out. Keith's definition of spec is dead on...and all we can do.

Your correct...equal is the goal...and i see know one trying to make anything less equal...quite the contrary.

No need to bow out Adam, we have all been where you are right now and understand. The difference and advantage you will have over the next rookie is you have heeded the advise and knowledge of some who have been around. And when the Nirvana doesn't materialize...well, you'll be prepared. But please, be patient in forming opinions...things are really much closer than what some want you to believe...but don't believe me

[LarryKing]

Why do Hendrick cars win far more than all the others?

Shoot, everybody knows that - they cheat the Hell out of them.

By the way - how have they done lately (Go Smoke!)

[Doug007]

It's always good to go back to the bible, I mean GCR: "The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the membership with the
opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition."

That's the idea. Cheap cars with very specific and limited modifications to allow for low cost racing.

The fact that you can buy a "spec miata in a box" is a testament to how well the 'spec' works to limit modifications. Other good examples are the specified mazdaspeed suspension and 13 lb wheel rule. How much would people spend on carbon fiber wheels if that rule wasn't there?

Racing (or any sport/competition with a rule book) will always have those that work to the absolute limit of these rules, in this case building engines that are just barely within the prescribed mazda tolerances to extract a few more horsepower or simply paying attention to weight such that your car is right on the minimum when the race is done. But that's part of the competition. To out drive AND out prepare/tune your competitors. It takes both.

[William Keeling]

Just one out of division man here... But

I think if we allow all to race ARRC in Sm.. The place for SM2 is a REGIONAL DRIVER only status in any SM car.. Keep the SM, SM2 and SSM.. Guys who are your real candidates for SM2 are guys not running many nationals etc. If a ringer shows up in SM2, peer pressure would move them out or you pull them to SM if it is obvious they don't belong in SM2.
I think we made SM2 about cars, when it should have been about programs..

As far as next year, just like this year, the rules will be as close as possible, the year of your car will not determine the win.

Jim

I need SM2 it gives Larry's like me a place. I almost did not make mid-pack in the Larry class; I would have be tail end charlie in SM.