183 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

Just deserves quoting.

Clown+Jackson Seems just weeks ago you 2 had to be separated and sent to your corners for a time out!(Bring back Sam DS...miss him)
Was the original poster raised in Florida?

[Newton]

Per the GCR (can't speak for anything NASA related), your car is required to be compliant to the rules for the class entered at all times while on track.

Proven wrong, i retract my statement. Thank you James.

[granracing]

Not sure if this was clarified to you or not, but in ITA (IT in general for that matter) you can run any brand DOT rated tire. Toyo, Hoosier, Hankook, Goodyear, whatever.

2. nobody is going shave H20's and run it as a Q tire...

I didn't think anyone could legally use shaved H20s regardless of a gentleman's agreement or not. Is that not correct? Just like you can't grove dry tires.

who are shorter on money and vacation time and may be discouraged from MARRS

So don't try to run a series. It's really not that difficult. Run what races you want to, and have fun. Following a full race series should be about traveling to some outside tracks. If YOU CHOOOSE not to, then so be it. If you are truly interested in helping the region improve upon their events and series, volunteer for the region. People who organize these types of series listen to what racers in their region want and do their best to keep as many people happy as possible. Lets say the series decides to only include more local events. Then other people become upset.

Speak with your region, start attending the meetings which you know whatever decision is made people are going to complain, and try to help however you can.

[Mike Collins]

Gran, yes you could legally shave an H2O and run it in qualifying.....can't wait for the runoffs

[edzeb]

Speak with your region, start attending the meetings which you know whatever decision is made people are going to complain, and try to help however you can.

So, so, so true.... If 1/32th of the effort, work, and mental powers exercised on forums showed up at meetings instead and volunteered to work in our VOLUNTEER member driven club.....all would be better.

Ed...

[Glenn]

Gran, yes you could legally shave an H2O and run it in qualifying.....can't wait for the runoffs

For 2 laps......LOL

[jeopardyracing]

So don't try to run a series. It's really not that difficult. Run what races you want to, and have fun. Following a full race series should be about traveling to some outside tracks. If YOU CHOOOSE not to, then so be it. If you are truly interested in helping the region improve upon their events and series, volunteer for the region. People who organize these types of series listen to what racers in their region want and do their best to keep as many people happy as possible. Lets say the series decides to only include more local events. Then other people become upset.

Speak with your region, start attending the meetings which you know whatever decision is made people are going to complain, and try to help however you can.

Understood and your points are well taken. I do volunteer in the context of instructing several weekends per year. I'd also like to help out in helping to create some kind of club racing outreach into the pdx program - for example by hosting some classroom sessions on making the leap, etc etc.

[Adam Molaver]

<SNIP>

I think the emotional over reactions to his post say more about the people commenting than it does on his position.

Just deserves quoting.

DISCLAIMER: i am the SM liason for NASA Mid-Atlantic. i speak for myself and not NASA.

unfortunately, i have to agree. it is amazing how non-civil people are willing to act when separated by keyboards instead of face to face. you may agree or disagree, address the points raised and offer alternatives, but is it really necessary to repeatedly bash the OP personally? did i misunderstand where someone was implying his crash was made up or he was lying about it? seriously?

racing is not cheap. some are able/willing to spend more than others. to be competitive requires significant time & effort commitments. i think we'd all agree on those things. however, this is amateur racing. organizers SHOULD be concerned about the cost to the participants, and making efforts to limit it. lowering the cost floor encourages more participants, and isn't that a good thing? more folks to BS with and drink beer with and go side-by-side through a corner with. having an open discussion about the costs is absolutely reasonable and those who roll their eyes and say, 'not this *&^ again,' should feel comfortable ignoring the thread and moving on. posting the same nasty attacks repeatedly is a) rude, b )not productive, and c) rude.

i think it might be helpful if those who disagree with rich to read mike c's comments / dialogue on rich's blog. he addresses rich's concerns point by point, adds some info, and clarifies the discussion with details. i specifically don't agree regarding the tire cost - it seems fairly clear to me the hoosier is more expensive and for multiple reasons. the tires don't last as long as the RA1. i've got 15 heat cycle RA1s that i just ran 28 flats at summit on. i'd guess the fastest scca guys probably could have run low 27's with those tires. whats a 15 cycle hoosier turning (& its fastest lap)? and i'll get another weekend out of them (alright, alright, probably at mid-o ). basically, i get 3 full, competitive weekends out of the RA1. i know the hoosier doesn't do that. how many sessions does the H2O last? i just got new RA1 rains..after 6 years. probably 25 sessions on them, and i think i ran my fastest wet laps ever at VIR on them late last year. will the H2O do that? should i mention the contingency?

the travel argument i think is more of a 'rug moving out from under you' type of thing. you mentally prepare for a season that consists of x number of races at tracks a, b, and c, do that for a year or two, then the schedule changes - now you 'need' to run tracks a, b, c, d, and e to run a 'full season' (define that as you will). i think the reality is that tracks come and go, the desires of the participants change and/or new / different voices get heard from by the decision makers. in this case, though, there is something odd to me about the glen being used as part of the 'mid atlantic road racing series'. but, if racers choose to make their voice heard that they want to go, its up to the sanctioning body to either accommodate that or risk losing participants.

you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. EVERY decision each of the bodies makes will probably upset at least some of their participants. its a matter of choosing what compromises YOU'RE willing to make. you. each and every racer gets to choose what weekends to attend, NASA or SCCA or a bunch of others. if you decide you want to compete in a championship, that decision needs to take into account the venues and scheduling associated. its not easy. it takes a lot of effort and time and money that not everyone can afford. but if you want to change the way an existing series is run, it sure won't happen if you don't say anything. rich stood up and made some cogent points. right or wrong, agree or disagree, no need for rock throwing. perhaps there are other, better vehicles for his message to be delivered, but speaking as an outsider to SCCA, it is less than clear what the appropriate venue is for that kind of message. rich wants his voice / POV heard, and it seems like that mission is accomplished(!). i think rich also wanted a dialogue about his points, a discussion of pros and cons. that said, if others agree with him - even if in private only - they should probably contact mike c (or ?? - mike?) and find out who / how the most effective way to voice their opinion is.

ahm

[Mike Collins]

I am the SM and SM5 representative to the WDCR SCCA and I am on the SMAC the rules arm of the CRB for SCCA National. Yep. Our annual Competition Meeting is an open meeting on Saturday of Labor Day weekend at our double race.....

We do have a participation requirement to vote...two races in the class you participate in....

[conlin]

Ok , i will stir the pot some more, i agree with you adam instead off a open and honest discusion you are more likely to get your a$$ torn up by posting here, so let me reframe this discussion another way , The way i read between the lines off riches post is , the tire situation could off been avaoided or put off for a few years its not only that the tires cost more , there is no left overs from last year to run a practice day on new track, getting to know a new tire costs a lot off money in a bad economy , after just going through this a few years ago with the toyo 888 i thought we learned our lesson .I personally have struggled with anything but the ra1 , I ran vir on a set hoosiers and totally destroyed them, flat spotting them and know that is going to cost me a ton off money to get confortable on them ( i am going to charlotte and fully expect not to come home with tires , i just hope i can get a full weekend in on a set] , i also live close to summit and know that it is a hard track to pass at with out forcing the issue , having done a lot off body work when the r888 came out i could not see how this year was going to be any better , a softer tire , a lot off false confidence, and not a lot off people knowing the limit off the tire ,. equals a lot off contact. The way i looked at it , it was going to cost me 3 times the cost off what i normaly spend on tires a year. And who knows on body work?
So i my self chose to race nasa a lot more this season do to the fact that i have a lot off toyos sitting in the garage and i know fully well that every weekend that i will be on a hoosier i will be misrable for a long time trying to get used to the tire , for me to come to the track it needs to be enjoyable.
So rich i understand where you are coming from tires are probally our number one consumable per year on our cars. its not just the travel its every thing put together thats picking off 10 entrys on the grid every year.

[chris haldeman]

Gran, yes you could legally shave an H2O and run it in qualifying.....can't wait for the runoffs

2 sets ready to go :-)

[Tom Sager]

Adam, your post is a good one. I can understand Rich's frustration with cost. Most of our expenses are going the wrong direction in recent years - fuel, tires, entry fees, safety equipment and certainly the competitive nature of our class sends us all down the expensive rat hole of greater performance from both the car and driver.

As for tire expense, I recall that there was some pretty widespread dissatisfaction with the RA1 toward the end of last year maybe due to the inventory being depleated and the newer tires not wearing so well. From an SCCA point of view I welcomed the change but after most of a season, I'm finding the competitve life of the Hoosier's to be very short, far less than the 8 cycles Rich quotes. I had a bunch of Toyo's leftover which are like good bottles of wine and have worked very well at the NASA races I have run this year. Right now I'd say the Toyo competitive life is roughly double that of the Hoosier but admittedly I might not yet have cracked the code on getting more competitive life from the Hoosier's even though I have practiced good cycling and rotating. I'm hoping Hoosier will follow up after this season with even more info on care and setup for best performance and wear. Frankly I think we have been spoiled with the useful life we typically get with Toyo's. They have been better IMO than any R compound tire that I can remember going back a bunch of years with the exception of the 888 and the batch of tires from last year.

Cost containment is really important to our class and I think to the majority of SCCA and NASA competitors. There are some blatant examples of ignoring this in our SCCA division. SCCA CENDIV did not have a single double National this year. Dumb. We have a track (Autobahn) which is a 15-60 minute drive from almost anywhere in the Chicago area. A track where people can drive home Saturday night and avoid hotel cost. In the past 6 years there have been 3 national races there and I believe 0 regionals, dumb. Yeah, I need to find out why. NASA has 3 events there each year, smart.

[Cnj]

Topic seems to have drifted into a debate on tires. I have no dog in the hunt on the east coast discussion (its a quagmire) but I do have an opinion on tires.

I like the Hoosiers from a driving point of view, had no difficulty transitioning to them, have not found them to be appreciably different in wear to RA-1's, have found similar costs due to no shaving and no shipping (local dealer) and the H2O's are a MUCH better/safer rain tire.

Conlin, we are simply not seeing the damage due to learning curve that you mention and definitely a 300% cost increase is far out of the norm. Maybe drivers in TX are better?

Cnj

[KentCarter]

If you are racing it, you should be financially prepared to write it off for the scrap value. So disposable cash should be high to risk a second car.

Yep... I finished stripping all my stuff from the completely bent car that used to be my SpecMiata today. It's done.

[conlin]

CNJ let me be a little more blunt, I was involved in a sale off a company some years back let me show you the paralles it was a alarm company thae sale was 28 million, in the contract we the sellers had to guarantee that the accounts paid for the year , in the buyers clause they had to matain the program that they where on service schds billing etc.

Now the fun part during the coarse off the year , they got a crazy notion that they would change everyones billing untill the first off the year , we had three diffrent billing options 1 15 30 when they where done switching every one over to the first they had over 8000 accounts go south , there was a lot off people on a fixed income that it did not fit it turned ugly litigation the whole nine yards ( any one in business will tell you it is much easyer to keep / matain a acct then create a new account) every one lost in the end.(exept the lawyers)

Now let me show you in racing if we just left the tire deal the same for the time being , imo the entrys would not have seen such a drop off this year i just looked up summit points july race this year (23) to last years (33) entrys its a 1/3 drop off .

1 It was a lot to ask for in a bad economy to show up at the first race with a couple off grand in new tires , while they are looking at a pile off old toyos sitting in the garage
most off the guys on a budget could and would have been able to cover entry fees and maybe a new set off toyos inturn got the racing bug all over again and would off signed up all year
2 As with any thing new there is a learning curve, with some thing new, weather it is a track tires or a new part.( some will adapt quicker) but it will cost everyone more money in the long run ( remeber this is not a competition adjustment to make three gens off cars equal)
3 Right or wrong a lot off people still have a bad taste in there mouth about the whole r888 deal ( so intoducing a new tire good and bad does not excite people)
The point i was trying to make with the tires is in my imo it was a horrable time to make the switch do it when people are on waiting lists to race not when the club is struggling to fill the class ( back to the business point it was easy'r to keep that entry/customer then its going to be to get a new one) it also has a tricke down effect the motor guy, part shops,oil companys etc have less customers. Also think off it this way you will always have some people coming and going pretty much the statis quoe ,major changes[ use the billing fiasco) drop a lot off people out off the sport and it takes years to build that back up accts/entrys.
I personally have no opion on the tires ,(yes i can afford them) no i do not have a lot off track time on them ,yes i will race on them and fiqure them out , the whole moral off the story is we need to stop gutting this class every year by change by change , every one that is making these decisions ( i know its hard , i have to make them every day ) really needs to think about the long term effects off the class before they change / rember these are not split second decions behind the wheel .
Cnj you can apply all this to the travel also , take out tires just add fuel , lost time from work, reapirs, wear and tear , bent up cars.(its new we all have to fiqure it out) it was quite a suprise when the schedule came out for many .
I know full well what racing costs, i have raced just about anything with a motor since i was 9 years old , i have been from canada to mexico cali to ny and just about every state inbetween to race , and i can tell you from racing many series when its not enjoyable and affordable , people leave in droves.The way i have seen it in my few years off racing we keep losing customers/entrys due to our own actions .
Bottom line is tires fuel and entry fees are the things we use the most out off the coarse off the season , in our region we messed with 2

[DrDomm]

Yep... I finished stripping all my stuff from the completely bent car that used to be my SpecMiata today. It's done.

And will you be putting those parts on a new SM, or selling them off? That's the big question. Good luck, either way.

[Cnj]

Conlin,

My post was simply to respond to your comments on the longevity (hence cost) of the Hoosiers and the learning curve (and expected damage). I don't have an opinion worth listening to on the race series on the east coast as I don't race there. I agree that constant changes to the class hurts us and should be avoided when possible.

With that said I believe that both SCCA and NASA are working hard to maintain a common and consistent rule set for several years with the one (annoying) distinction being tires.

Cnj.

[KentCarter]

And will you be putting those parts on a new SM, or selling them off? That's the big question. Good luck, either way.

Going on a new tub, but bailing out crossed my mind more than once.

[Cnj]

Going on a new tub, but bailing out crossed my mind more than once.

Glad u r staying in. Otherwise who would I have left to beat?

Cnj

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

Glad u r staying in. Otherwise who would I have left to beat?

Cnj

It's good your finally accepting your place.