183 replies to this topic

[James York]

I....can't make these races due to time and budget constraints.

You're joking right? You own two SMs and you can't budget travel and tires?

Don't tell me, you drive a Cadillac and use food stamps while taking on an iPhone.

[James York]

Also to clear something up. Anyone feel free to correct me on this. but my understanding is that just because your car is not legal (slightly illegal because im buying everyones slightly used RA1s cheap, not LS9 in my miata illegal) doesnt mean you cant race, it simply means your results wont be counted...........UNLESS you are running so much slower that you create a hazard, or you are purposely interfering with the actual competitors. So if your goal is to get on track and race(like your own personal time trials) and you stay out of the way, then you can still do that as far as my knowledge takes me.

Per the GCR (can't speak for anything NASA related), your car is required to be compliant to the rules for the class entered at all times while on track.

[jeopardyracing]

The truth offends many, and opinions claiming to be the truth offend some more. No deletions as long as there aren't personal attacks.

I do think you've provided some good food for thought, Rich, even though many are resisting the temptation. If NASA turns out to be the best bang for your buck, by all means race with them. While I'm an SCCA guy myself, I think the SCCA guys who want the Club to be successful should pay attention to feedback, especially to that provided by those who try so conscientiously to be understood.

Thank you Jim. One of the things I have tried to stress here is that my blog post wasn't actually focused on me or what should do. I used myself as a representative sample of a subset of drivers in the region who are on their way toward turning away from the MARRS series or may avoid it from the start. The intent of the piece was to give our region a window into what many drivers are thinking. It would be much easier to silently move my racing elsewhere and then complain in the paddock only - and the sad fact is that many will start doing that if the series increasingly caters to a different audience. It's so frustrating that posting the blog here backfired because I became a personal magnet for vitriol against whining, which in turn guaranteed that anyone like minded in our region steered well clear of the thread. My inspiration for writing the article and then posting it was a strong feeling among region representatives that this perspective needs to be heard, so I wanted to articulate it and provide a public forum for debate on the topic. Obviously my approach was badly flawed. I should have written the blog much more generally focused on the region and away from my personal program and secondarily, this was clearly not a good forum for the post.

[jeopardyracing]

You're joking right? You own two SMs and you can't budget travel and tires?

Don't tell me, you drive a Cadillac and use food stamps while taking on an iPhone.

This is actually an interesting one. In April it was clear at the SSM was so badly damaged that it would take most of the season to fix it. That meant renting race cars if I was to try to get back out racing again in 2012 which I eventually decided I wanted to do for personal and proficiency reasons. When I looked at the cost of renting I was pretty astonished, so we decided that simply buying a complete car and then selling it at the end of the season would actually be more economical - especially if I can fix it up a bit (this one needs a new fender and door, and some paint work). So the second SM is actually capex, not operating cost, and a short term buy. Assuming I take care of it, I should be able to sell it again for not too much more than I paid - and the depreciation will be a great deal less than renting all these weekends (I've been instructing too).

But again - the post isn't about me personally, it's about guys like me, who are shorter on money and vacation time and may be discouraged from MARRS with the new season. The point of the post is that the changes will change the character of the MARRS series as people self select out.

[Keith Novak]

Per the GCR (can't speak for anything NASA related), your car is required to be compliant to the rules for the class entered at all times while on track.

That goes with a grain of salt. I had a time when my I thought my tires were shot and (running at the back) and my back-up plan was to run some old 888s that weren't legal any more. I said I'd DQ myself but people didn't seem to care. Turns out my pressure gauge was broken and I was running about 50 psi but people were supportive of me putting on whatever if it meant I could race, even if poorly. One of our best drivers crushed the front of his car in a big race weekend, and after straightening the frame (sort of) in the paddock he qualified knowing it was missing lots of parts in the front end that technically would make it non-compliant. Had to start at the back because it came in light with all those missing parts but we were all glad to see he got back on track.

[DrDomm]

Rich, have you posted in any other threads lately? Just try a different topic, and see if it goes any better. I still say, bitching about racing costs should be done in private, with a few beers, or only with non-racers...and even they aren't sympathetic.

And for those who keep saying this thread is so stupid...it sure has gone on for a few pages...

[DrDomm]

Racing's a funny sport/hobby. If you're fast, people demand you be compliant. If you're a turtle, they don't care. If you're in the middle, it's who you know or have pissed off.

[David L]

Rich, I am not trying to attack you in a mean spirited way even if it is coming across that way. I am just trying to open your eyes. We as racers in the scca vote with our wallets. If you look at this past weekend at Nelson (and I am only going by the registration online) I don't believe we will be going back there. But if you reread your blog you should see that you want to cater to 5% of the race population not the 95% that have been voting with there wallets this year. We want you to race, the SCCA wants you to race, but you must be realalistic with your expectations. You will get out what you put in. And now that I have read most of your blog entries I think you need to reavaluate if racing is really for you or maybe you should just stick to pdx and Instruction. Because as you so clearly have stated that guys who have no track experience prior to a wdcr scca race school are just outright dangerous and mindless drivers with no regard for human life. As a person who never sat in a racecar or laid eyes on a racetrack before the WDCR race school takes great offense to your comments and since there on the www for anyone to see you have no right to play the victim here yet again. This forum has the greatest bunch of guys (except for me) who bend over backwards for anyone looking for help. I read this forum and I went racing even after reading about all the CHEATING going on. I am sorry that a person with all your racing knowledge and far superior skills feels so uncomfortable out racing with other like minded individuals.

My wife just told me that I may not be able to make it to labor days race, she wants to go on vacation and since I work 6 days a week I am going to ask to postpone the race and condense it into a sunday only MARRS Championship with only corded hancook tires allowed.

[DrDomm]

Rich, I am not trying to attack you in a mean spirited way even if it is coming across that way. I am just trying to open your eyes. We as racers in the scca vote with our wallets. If you look at this past weekend at Nelson (and I am only going by the registration online) I don't believe we will be going back there. But if you reread your blog you should see that you want to cater to 5% of the race population not the 95% that have been voting with there wallets this year. We want you to race, the SCCA wants you to race, but you must be realalistic with your expectations. You will get out what you put in. And now that I have read most of your blog entries I think you need to reavaluate if racing is really for you or maybe you should just stick to pdx and Instruction. Because as you so clearly have stated that guys who have no track experience prior to a wdcr scca race school are just outright dangerous and mindless drivers with no regard for human life. As a person who never sat in a racecar or laid eyes on a racetrack before the WDCR race school takes great offense to your comments and since there on the www for anyone to see you have no right to play the victim here yet again. This forum has the greatest bunch of guys (except for me) who bend over backwards for anyone looking for help. I read this forum and I went racing even after reading about all the CHEATING going on. I am sorry that a person with all your racing knowledge and far superior skills feels so uncomfortable out racing with other like minded individuals.

My wife just told me that I may not be able to make it to labor days race, she wants to go on vacation and since I work 6 days a week I am going to ask to postpone the race and condense it into a sunday only MARRS Championship with only corded hancook tires allowed.

I thought you guys were bonding, then the sarcasm erupted.

[dstevens]

When I looked at the cost of renting I was pretty astonished, so we decided that simply buying a complete car and then selling it at the end of the season would actually be more economical - especially if I can fix it up a bit (this one needs a new fender and door, and some paint work).

The rental cost is nothing compared to what the damage costs are when you wad one up.

I wouldn't be concerned with how some of the others are attacking you Rich. You are certainly entitled to your opinion even though I think it's based on not having a lot of experience wheel to wheel racing. For many it requires travel. That's just how it is. For some, they don't venture too far from their home tracks if at all. You have to do what works for you, not what a bunch of disgruntled forum posters think you should do. You are responsible for for making sure the program you run suits you. Unless the others are willing to fund your program, I wouldn't be concerned with what they think.

[dstevens]

Rich, I am not trying to attack you in a mean spirited way even if it is coming across that way.

In what sort of way were you trying to attack him?

[James York]

That goes with a grain of salt. I had a time when my I thought my tires were shot and (running at the back) and my back-up plan was to run some old 888s that weren't legal any more. I said I'd DQ myself but people didn't seem to care. Turns out my pressure gauge was broken and I was running about 50 psi but people were supportive of me putting on whatever if it meant I could race, even if poorly. One of our best drivers crushed the front of his car in a big race weekend, and after straightening the frame (sort of) in the paddock he qualified knowing it was missing lots of parts in the front end that technically would make it non-compliant. Had to start at the back because it came in light with all those missing parts but we were all glad to see he got back on track.

Keith,

I wasn't passing judgement on the action. The original poster asked to be corrected if he was in error in his belief you could run for "no finish". I just stated the rules.

Like every rule, the entrant will have to decide if they wish to comply.

[James York]

Assuming I take care of it, I should be able to sell it again for not too much more than I paid - and the depreciation will be a great deal less than renting all these weekends

If you are racing it, you should be financially prepared to write it off for the scrap value. So disposable cash should be high to risk a second car.

[David L]

In what sort of way were you trying to attack him?

Actually I am not really attacking him at all I actually have paddocked with Rich even if he doesnt remember. VIR last year. And I think he is a really nice guy and we got along ok. I am meerly sheding light on his own thoughts that he has posted. Not sure if you have read all or some of his blogs but some people might take his opinions about other racers (me or you) as offensive because we do not live up to his standards of a good driver is. I don't think I have attacked him personally nor do I want to and if I have Rich I am sorry. I just want him to look at the other side of his view. His origanal post 8 pages ago may be getting lost but it comes down to dismissing all the hard work that others do to be competitve. Time, travel expense, we all do it because we love it, if you don't love it don't do it. Simple.

My last sentence was funny and true My wife told me tonight that she wants to go away for labor day. I just took a new job and will now be working 6 days a week but had negotiated labor day off to race. Now I have to decide wether to have a happy wife and go on vacation or do what I love to do and be miserable for however long she decides.

[Keith Novak]

Keith,

I wasn't passing judgement on the action. The original poster asked to be corrected if he was in error in his belief you could run for "no finish". I just stated the rules.

Like every rule, the entrant will have to decide if they wish to comply.

Totally understand and agree. There's a big difference between not even trying to be compliant and the odd exceptions like the emergency mid-weekend fix or the rules nobody cares about like driving with a dent in your fender.

[Cnj]

Totally understand and agree. There's a big difference between not even trying to be compliant and the odd exceptions like the emergency mid-weekend fix or the rules nobody cares about like driving with a dent in your fender.

Big difference between driving with a dent in your fender and driving with non sanctioned tires.

Cnj

[dstevens]

Not sure if you have read all or some of his blogs but some people might take his opinions about other racers (me or you) as offensive because we do not live up to his standards of a good driver is.

The opinion of someone I don't know or haven't raced or even met doesn't concern me. Particularly banter on blogs or various forums. You have attacked Rich, both directly and in a passive aggressive manner. For example in the post in which he described as "harsh" you singled him out and criticized his ability. In the post I commented on you passive aggressively used sarcasm to berate him. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don't try to hide after the fact by couching your statements or going into denial or deflecting any criticism.

I think the emotional over reactions to his post say more about the people commenting than it does on his position.

[David L]

I never attacked his ability I simply asked how he was doing in NASA because I didn't know. If you read his blogs you will see how he attacks people that do not think like him or does what he does. Now there is no need for me and you to get into it because I don't know you and I would hate to argue with you about someone else. I do know Rich and for him to biatch about everything that our great region does I do take offense and If he wants to belittle lesser "experienced" drivers .Being one of "those" I will surely take offense. I am also sorry that the truth hurts . But I am definitly not hiding behind anything,. I am right here voicing MY OPINIONS like everyone else.

[Jim Boemler]

I think the emotional over reactions to his post say more about the people commenting than it does on his position.

Just deserves quoting.

[dstevens]

I am also sorry that the truth hurts .

I don't consider an opinion to be "truth" in this context.

I think its OK to toss ideas around, or even criticize the idea. In the bigger picture I think it wise to look into potential reasons when participation has declined or leveled. The economy is an easy scapegoat and I think a large cause but likely not the only reason. Could be the time and commitment involved. Could be high expectations not met. Could be burnout. Could be a number of things. I think it's entirely plausible that travel and tire costs are factors though if they are deciding factors one may not be well off financially or have the desire to spend that money on a hobby. I just don't think that travel and tires are the primary reason. I believe it's more of a "perfect storm", if you will. That is, several factors all coming into play at once and dependent on the specific regions and demographic of those racers.