117 replies to this topic

[philstireservice]

Toyo did have an issue with a very small run of the RR. The newer ones are perfect ( to date). Set pressures with a tire pyrometer, like you should do all the time with any R compound tire. 

[Ron Alan]

Toyo did have an issue with a very small run of the RR. The newer ones are perfect ( to date). Set pressures with a tire pyrometer, like you should do all the time with any R compound tire. 

Can you elaborate on the pyrometer usage? What type of Max temps are you looking for and what would be a max difference across the tire tread?

[davearm]

Phil, 

How can you tell if you have a "newer"set that don't require the specific inside/outside mounting. Is there a production date to look for?

Thanks,

 

  Dave

[marcusmazza]

Just got back from a NASA race at NJMP. I had six new RRs with a 2012 manufacturing date (not sure the month). I heat cycled them a week before the race on the street. Not ideal, but I figured better than nothing. I also ignored the mounting info, and mounted them all the same, so basically, one tire on the front is always reverse of toyo's recommendation. Same with the rear. I felt the tires got 'greasey' during the first two or three sessions, causing the car to oversteer quite a bit (similar to the R888s). After that, they seemed to come in, and the car balanced out again. I did have to put the rear bar on soft though.

 

Observations:

 

-No tread splitting/seam seperation noticed

-Tire temps in the rear ran about 15-20 deg hotter than the front

-max temp was around 200deg (rear) and 185deg (front)

-I was able to get pretty flat temps across the tread on the left side of the car, but inside temps were always 15 deg or so hotter than outside temps on the right side of the car (same camber left to right). NJMP is a very dominant right turn track, as are most.

-I ended up running between 40-41 psi hot (roughly 31-32 psi cold)

-The tires felt better then the RA1s, but only after 3-4 heat cycles

 

 

 

-Marc

[philstireservice]

Can you elaborate on the pyrometer usage? What type of Max temps are you looking for and what would be a max difference across the tire tread?

 

 

You want to see an average of 180-200 degrees across the tread. Ideally hotter on the inside and cooler on the outside..ex. Out 180 middle 190 inside 200.

[philstireservice]

Phil, 

How can you tell if you have a "newer"set that don't require the specific inside/outside mounting. Is there a production date to look for?

Thanks,

 

  Dave

Dave  - all the the Toyo RR's, newer or older require the proper mounting procedure. ( if you ever have an issue with a Toyo this will matter).

[philstireservice]

Just got back from a NASA race at NJMP. I had six new RRs with a 2012 manufacturing date (not sure the month). I heat cycled them a week before the race on the street. Not ideal, but I figured better than nothing. I also ignored the mounting info, and mounted them all the same, so basically, one tire on the front is always reverse of toyo's recommendation. Same with the rear. I felt the tires got 'greasey' during the first two or three sessions, causing the car to oversteer quite a bit (similar to the R888s). After that, they seemed to come in, and the car balanced out again. I did have to put the rear bar on soft though.

 

Observations:

 

-No tread splitting/seam seperation noticed

-Tire temps in the rear ran about 15-20 deg hotter than the front

-max temp was around 200deg (rear) and 185deg (front)

-I was able to get pretty flat temps across the tread on the left side of the car, but inside temps were always 15 deg or so hotter than outside temps on the right side of the car (same camber left to right). NJMP is a very dominant right turn track, as are most.

-I ended up running between 40-41 psi hot (roughly 31-32 psi cold)

-The tires felt better then the RA1s, but only after 3-4 heat cycles

 

 

 

-Marc

Everything here sounds just about right, except - don't waste your time trying to heat cycle them on the street, better off getting them heat cycled when you purchase them. Also, I'm glad to see someone running 40-41psi hot....you wanna be fast get used to higher psi. Make it work !!

[john mueller]

I ran them at 41psi and had PB laps at that pressure before my brakes failed...

[marcusmazza]

I've always seemed to run higher pressures than a lot of people. Even with the RA1's, I would run 42psi hot. I know most guys ran them down in the 30's. I think 36-38psi if I remember. I've tried it multiple times, but I'm always slower at the lower pressures. The 41psi hot pressure for the RR's was based on tire temps. I started high, and stepped down in 2psi increments untill the temps. were linear across the tire, i.e. the three temps form a straight line when plotted. Phil's example of 180, 190, 200 is linear. 180, 185, 200 would not be (tire is underinflated). They also felt good from a subjective standpoint, and my lap times were pretty good. The only cars faster at Jersey that weekend were the cars running Hoosiers (It was an open tire race).

 

 

-Marc

[William Bonsell]

Just finished a NASA weekend and ran the RR's for the first time other than a scrubbing session and one qualifying session three weeks earlier. So they only had 2 cycles on them. They are obviously heavier than the used shaved RA-1's which we also used. Personal bests were set by both my son and I on the RA-1s on Saturday and targeting about 36 hot. Running the RR's mostly on Sunday, times were about equal, but not faster. While I could notice the improved grip this did not result in faster lap times. Perhaps one needs a little time to learn how to drive to the grip of the tire. Our hot tire pressures never exceeded 37 so perhaps, as seems to be the case here, we needed to be targeting a hotter tire pressure. My son did notice a little less speed at the end of the straight perhaps from the additional weight.

 

But, they are wearing very nicely and as I understand it, they should become faster as they wear a bit.

 

Bill-

[Joey Jordan]

First heat cycle golden lap is about lap 4 or 5, then it gets greasy and loses time every lap after that, so good to qual, but no so much to race.  Pressures very similar to RA-1 seem to work fine.

 

After sitting for a day or a week the tire levels out, never quite as fast as lap 4 but still faster than the ra-1.

 

 

I've been running the RR's for the past two race weekends and the way I would describe them would make you think we were running complete different tires...

 

 

 

After the first race at Willow Springs most people in my region seemed to be under the impression that you need stickers for every race if you want to win... We cant afford that.  At Willow Springs we had a new set for the first day but on the second day I was the only guy out of the top 3 who wasn't running a new set.  Despite this I was able to lead for a good portion of the race and battle without falling off much and I ended up getting a 2nd place finish. Throughout the race I was battling extreme oversteer and after watching the race video I realized the oversteer ultimately cost me the win. But still I was extremely relieved to find that you can still compete with older tires.

 

 

So with that knowledge I went into the next raceweekends test day with the plan to set the car up on old tires.  I put on some dead multi heat cycled Hoosiers and tweaked the setup to make the dead tires more "managable".  Coming into the first race day I was still on my tires from Willow Springs while the rest of the top 4 were on stickers.  In qualifying I was just a tick off and in the race I was battling with them for most of the race until I experienced some ignition switch issues... My race time was 3rd best and a tenth or so off the best time.

 

 

Setting up the car for older tires worked.  I was able to keep pace and compete on older tires while my competitors were on new tires. I came to the realization that it’s not that the tires fall off it’s that the older tires just become much harder to drive fast.  Stickers make driving fast easier which is probably why many people tend to think the tires continually fall off.  You can be fast on older tires; you just have to work a lot harder for it.

 

 

On the second day instead of regular qualifying we had a qualifying race.  The top four were not on stickers but they were far newer than my same tires from Willow Springs.  On the older tires I ended up finishing second for the qualifying race and had one of the better lap times.  After the qualifying race the tires were nearly to the base rubber and I was still able to compete at the top! Since two of my tires were under the threat of cording I put on just two stickers (all we could afford) on the left side for a predominantly right turning track.  The whole race I was battling for the lead and ended up winning the race.. The guy I was competing with was on all 4 new sticker tires! With the two new tires my lap times weren’t any faster.  The new tires just made the driving easier. There was lest sliding around and they were just more compliant. 

 

 

If I my tires weren’t threatening cords I would have gladly have saved the two freshies and I feel confident that I could have still won on the old tires.  Sorry for going into such detail but i am just really excited and I wanted to share the good news! Old tires are just as fast and we don’t need to spend the outrageous amount of money to buy stickers for every race in order to win. 

[philstireservice]

Setting up the car for older tires worked.  I was able to keep pace and compete on older tires while my competitors were on new tires. I came to the realization that it’s not that the tires fall off it’s that the older tires just become much harder to drive fast.  Stickers make driving fast easier which is probably why many people tend to think the tires continually fall off.  You can be fast on older tires; you just have to work a lot harder for it. - Joey Jordan

 

 

 

This such a great statement. It states the obvious, which most if not all, over look. Good job Joey!

[William Bonsell]

Would it be impertinent to ask, without giving specific data, what setting up the car for older tires entails? Have not heard of this before, but certainly would like to know. Thanks....

[Daniel Meade]

Setting up the car for older tires worked.  I was able to keep pace and compete on older tires while my competitors were on new tires. I came to the realization that it’s not that the tires fall off it’s that the older tires just become much harder to drive fast.  Stickers make driving fast easier which is probably why many people tend to think the tires continually fall off.  You can be fast on older tires; you just have to work a lot harder for it. - Joey Jordan

 

 

 

This such a great statement. It states the obvious, which most if not all, over look. Good job Joey!

Good Guy Philstireservice sells tires, but gives props to the guy who states that you don't need to spend money on tires to go fast. 

[Daniel Meade]

" tweaked the setup to make the dead tires more "managable".  

 

I too would like to know what this entails. More/Less camber? Change of bar?

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

Don't want to speak for Joey, but we work together on setup on the car.  We took some of the "loose" out of the car by softening the rear bar and adding a 1/2 degree of neg  rear camber, If you watch his video's his car was really loose even on new tires,..loose is fast It is much more maneageble now.  Just slightly loose on old tires. He felt the camber was a bigger difference than the bar, so we may go back on the bar....  Hope that helps.

 

 

" tweaked the setup to make the dead tires more "managable".  

 

I too would like to know what this entails. More/Less camber? Change of bar?

[AW33COM]

Are these tires so good you can't find them used for sale?

[philstireservice]

All the tires we get back are spent, used up, corded and just plain useless........

 

Being that they are Spec for Miatas and E30's that tells the story right there ...